Ever had a primer fail?

Ian

Notorious member
Allen, you have it. Some would use the term "tolerance stacking" metaphorically to describe the situation.

Painted jackets have some characteristics which are not very well understood by everyone yet, least of all me. However, I have done a lot of work with them lately and have observed and actually quantified in one instance the comparative changes the coating makes to both bullet pull and engraving force. A chronograph will also demonstrate the effect.

Some observations:

That load should run about 25K psi, less than half the allowable average peak pressure per SAAMI.
So it wasn't an overcharge under NORMAL conditions. But the primer blew. The case head appears worn but mostly intact, though offset somehow but maybe that's the light. General overpressure? Tough to say, but probably so. Let's not forget that LC 5.56 machine gun ammunition case heads are harder than a whore's heart and have very small surface area for excessive chamber pressure to act upon compared to something like a .473" case head. Also, overpressure is relative to the system, and the bolt face simply may not have been up to even a normal, full-pressure load. This load may have spiked enough to compromise the containment system without showing the normal signs of extruded case head or grossly stretched primer pocket. No brass was washed out of the pocket or onto the bolt face, so pressure must not have been over something like 70K psi. So what blew the primer? Ok, first the brass. Worn out and annealed multiple times. Neck probably very thin from being sized up to 6mm from .22. Super-slick bullet seated into it. Around 20% empty space in the case. Primer pops the bullet out easily and immediately, it sticks in the throat for a split second, increasing the case volume and cooling the charge, then the smoldering powder goes "POOF" against a bore obstruction. Due to the small, light bullet, decent case to bore diameter ratio, the super-slick coating, and the shape of the powder kernels, the poof did a lot less damage to the system than it could have, but plenty enough to blow the primer, and the condition of the rifle may have made that worse than it could have been.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. I suggest digging out a reloading manual, reading and heeding ALL of the safety warnings and mandatory brass inspections after every firing, and until you understand what you're playing with better, do not deviate from the COMPONENT selections indicated in published load data. I have had a similar accident with a 1911 because I failed to check one important thing after making a slight adjustment to my loading process. Over-confidence is as bad as ignorance.
 

SierraHunter

Bullshop jr
Over confidence may have had a large roll to play in this failure. The primer pushing the bullet makes perfect sense. I'm usually pretty good about learning from my mistakes. This should be no different. I really appreciate the input guys. I'll get a new extractor ordered for the rifle and start with a batch of new cases when I get back onto this project.

Rick, Ian, I'm sorry for Being a bit bull headed here. I asked for your opinion, and when I didn't like what you had to say, I was a bit obstinate. Thank you for sharing your opinions and experience with me.
 

David Reiss

Active Member
I have to agree with most of what has been posted and the result was a bad choice of the combination of components. But I think we can end this thread with the same common thought and not beat up on Daniel anymore. He will learn from this experience and hopefully stick with the suggested loads printed in loading manuals. It takes many years of experience before you can start experimenting with load data. If he does not heed these words and warning, then this will happen again and he may not be so lucky. But I have faith he will, the first step was letting us know it happened.
 
9

9.3X62AL

Guest
Everything I posted was intended to show caring and respect, I like Daniel a hell of a lot. If I had a son, I would want a Daniel. Mostly, I'm glad that he is uninjured, and it appears that the rifle survived in fair-to-good order.

Brass is so SO CRITICAL to safety in this hobby field. I view fired brass with strong, reflexive distrust. I just spent almost $300 dollars on new brass for the 22-250, because of the history/length of service of my current lot I have on hand. I just won't risk using long-in-the-tooth cases.
 

Ian

Notorious member
I'd rather his head absorb some stern words of caution and explanations that may make him a more safe handloader than absorb a bolt handle. All we can hope is that it doesn't take a bolt handle to deliver the message.
 

David Reiss

Active Member
Al, I agree with what you said about Daniel, I like him a lot also. I just think he needs time to absorb it all and reflect on what has happened and all the advice. I truly wish he was close to me so I could mentor him. But for now we are his mentors. Maybe beat up on him was the wrong choice of words, because everyone means well and was giving him good advice. As I said before, I hope he does not make this mistake again and heeds all the advice from you, Ian, Rick and all the rest. :)
 
F

freebullet

Guest
I lost a primer in federal factory loads from a 270. Unmolested factory loads, freaky stuff can happen in this hobby.

They have you on the right track.

I have one additional experience that could help you here. I was working a load in 223 using imr7383. The brass had the pockets beveled just like yours. As I neared the upper end but not a hot load I noticed erratic ignition via the rifles report. I check the cases and found several had a little pinhole between the primers edge & the case with a bit of black soot around the hole.

I was having the same issue but, mine didn't blow out. If I had shot the next heaviest charge weight I believe I'd have a similar situation. I won't bevel a primer pocket anymore & believe it is a weakening attribute to your loads.

Liking warm loads is OK but, how you get there matters. Pressure signs aren't always what you think they'll be. A lot of squirrely stuff can happen along the way.

Check the bore really close for powder coat or lead build up. The red pc will line your bore with a sweet layer of black crust that can cause problems to. That usually happens when it's undercooked or your forcing to large a bullet down the tube.

I'm glad you weren't injured & your rifle is repairable. Please do take this as an opportunity to learn more. When working off the reservation with bullets, loads, & ect take it slow. Look for ANY clues along the way. Remember the weakest link will fail & it's not always what you'd think because your off the reservation in the loadings.
 

SierraHunter

Bullshop jr
I've seen several mentions now about the beveled/cut primer pockets. Something else I've never heard of as being a problem. I don't own a primer pocket swager, but I'll get one if I need it.

I can say I learned a lot from this experience. I would much rather have my butt chewed out a bit then have anything like this happen again.
 

SierraHunter

Bullshop jr
Everything I posted was intended to show caring and respect, I like Daniel a hell of a lot. If I had a son, I would want a Daniel. Mostly, I'm glad that he is uninjured, and it appears that the rifle survived in fair-to-good order.

Brass is so SO CRITICAL to safety in this hobby field. I view fired brass with strong, reflexive distrust. I just spent almost $300 dollars on new brass for the 22-250, because of the history/length of service of my current lot I have on hand. I just won't risk using long-in-the-tooth cases.

That means a lot coming from you.

I am thinking it's time to start with a fresh batch of 6x45 cases. The batch of cases I am using now is pretty old. My dad used it well before I ever got the rifle, and I guess I get my tight wad instinct from him, because I have nursed the same batch of cases along the whole time be owned the rifle. I hate throwing cases away, but I'd rather spend a little money then having something else bad happen down the road.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
Several yr ago I was shooting a 22-250 built on a Mk X action with a Federal varminter weight bbl , Win 40 gr HP factory ammo in the bulk box . It was a warm day but not sweltering . These are or were rated at 4100 fps at 200 yd a decent operator could cover 5 regular with a half dollar .

On to my point . On this particular day shots 1-5 appeared normal , 6 showed a flat primer with a heavy seam , 7 showed leakage with only a line at the primer/ case jct and a smudge . 8 displayed a very flat primer and visible leaking. The 11th shot dropped the primer out . FACTORY AMMO.

Not content with that I loaded 20 rounds in some available 1x Winchester brass with a nominal but no where near max load of 3031 and some NOS Sierra 55 gr sp . Damned if they didn't repeat the example of the Factory 40s only I stopped at the flat primer and first hint of a leak , 8th rd .

Maybe the action and bbl hold too much heat ...... Maybe the rifle just shouldn't be shot over 1 round per min or in strings over 5 per half hour . I don't know .

Fact is that occasionally we find a magic place in approved data and parts matching that just doesn't click .

I won't even go into the 4198 in the 6.8 that short stroked and got worse as the load increased ..........
 

Chris

Well-Known Member
The primer manufacturers occasionally have out of spec products that can cause real problems.

I had Federal small rifle BR primers pierce 3 shots out of 5 in a .222 (21.0 4198 and a 50 gr. bullet) not a hot load. I did not have safety glasses on the first shot, you can bet I have worn them since.

I called federal and they wanted to replace the primers... turns out there was a known problem. Since I only had a few boxes I just pitched them.
 

quicksylver

Well-Known Member
"I have one additional experience that could help you here. I was working a load in 223 using imr7383. The brass had the pockets beveled just like yours. As I neared the upper end but not a hot load I noticed erratic ignition via the rifles report. I check the cases and found several had a little pinhole between the primers edge & the case with a bit of black soot around the hole.

I was having the same issue but, mine didn't blow out. If I had shot the next heaviest charge weight I believe I'd have a similar situation. I won't bevel a primer pocket anymore & believe it is a weakening attribute to your loads."


That's what I was talking about..I now use that batch of 30-06 for low pressure loads only..Dan
P.S. and I got rid of the reamer..think it was a Lyman
 

KHornet

Well-Known Member
As to throwing brass away, my rules of thumb are this:
Toss is there is any trace of a vert split anywhere on the brass
Toss if there is any trace of a split just above the extraction groove or the belt
Toss if there is an interior grove above the base of the ctg. A bent paper clip works ok to check as does a fine crochet hook
Toss if the primer goes in with little or no pressure, or go to a slightly bigger primer (if available), have found some lots of some
mfg of primers to run a tat small.








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Chris

Well-Known Member
As to throwing brass away, my rules of thumb are this:
Toss is there is any trace of a vert split anywhere on the brass
Toss if there is any trace of a split just above the extraction groove or the belt
Toss if there is an interior grove above the base of the ctg. A bent paper clip works ok to check as does a fine crochet hook
Toss if the primer goes in with little or no pressure, or go to a slightly bigger primer (if available), have found some lots of some
mfg of primers to run a tat small.

Exactly how I do it too. That little brass shell has to contain a lot of pressure...








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Josh

Well-Known Member
Hey Dan,

Valhalla Distributing sells 1x military 5.56 cases for roughly $65 per thousand, I have found it unnecessary to overuse 5.56 brass thanks to Valhalla.

Josh
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Just scanned some of the back and forth, so may have missed something,
but how about a pistol primer mixed in somehow?

I once fired a mild load of 4350 in my 7x57 95 Mauser and had it "bite my thumb"...... I was a
teen novice reloader and couldn't figure out what happened, and why my thumb hurt. A quick glance at the case
showed nothing unusual, so..... I fired another shot. Dang that hurts my thumb......, and this time
I noticed that the striker was back. After firing. Before I touched the bolt. Hmmm. How is that
possible? Now I looked more closely and found the punctured primer, gas going into the action
and smacking the firing pin and striker back, hitting my thumb on the stock. Thank goodness
that Mausers deal with blown primers very safely. No gun damage, but my thumb was
sore for a couple of days.

Primer was basically intact other than the hole, but maybe if you have a bit more headspace, it
may extrude and disintegrate a softer, thinner pistol primer at rifle pressures.

Bill
 
9

9.3X62AL

Guest
I've experienced no anomalies with miitary brass that have been either swaged or reamed to remove a crimp. I don't think either process was at fault for this occurrence. It would take a lot of reaming to remove enough pocket edge metal to set up a leak of this sort.
 

SierraHunter

Bullshop jr
As to throwing brass away, my rules of thumb are this:
Toss is there is any trace of a vert split anywhere on the brass
Toss if there is any trace of a split just above the extraction groove or the belt
Toss if there is an interior grove above the base of the ctg. A bent paper clip works ok to check as does a fine crochet hook
Toss if the primer goes in with little or no pressure, or go to a slightly bigger primer (if available), have found some lots of some
mfg of primers to run a tat small.








a
I usually do all that. I annealed these ones after I had one split at the neck last firing. I always anneal the whole batch if I have one split. I'll start with fifty, when I get to half, I toss them and start over.
 

SierraHunter

Bullshop jr
I've experienced no anomalies with miitary brass that have been either swaged or reamed to remove a crimp. I don't think either process was at fault for this occurrence. It would take a lot of reaming to remove enough pocket edge metal to set up a leak of this sort.
I usually just scratch them out just barely enough to get a new primer in with a ram prime.