Finally got a .40

[Pistolero]

The mental evolution went like this. A friend showed me his M&P 45 with Apex sear. I had liked
the grip feel of the M&P series but the trigger was now really good. Mental note, nice gun,
not too pretty, and big.

A few years later - AIM surplus has them used for $299 with three mags and three back straps
with thumb safeties.
OK, I'll bite. I LIKE it once I put in the Apex sear. Shoots well. Neat, but no real working niche, just
a good handgun, three rounds more than a 1911, much fatter. Interesting. Reliable. Full sized
open carry holster gun - limited use here.

Then talking to Al - and also with many years of other good reports on the effectiveness of the
.40 cartridge for SD work. Note the low prices for M&P 40s with three mags. Most can't support
thumb safety, so not for me. I find this thumb safety specific version for a right price, and they
have 15 rds....more than twice the 1911. NOW that is starting to be what you would call "an
advantage"....but too fat to CCW. But fine under the seat of the car..or wherever size isn't as much
a penalty. Still thinking of how it may be used, not quite certain. But it seems to shoot well, too.

Bill

 

[CZ93X62]

Bill hit lightly on a point that rings true for me--I won't be heartbroken if a Glock gets lost or seized. That is why I carry them in city environs. I have no illusions of ever getting back any firearm seized in LAX or SFO. For darn sure, I don't want my SIG-Sauers, S&W wheelguns, or CZ-75B winding up in some PD Captain's collection. Glocks are "disposable".

Enough said.

 

[freebullet]

Free bullet.....more info, please. Is that a physical store in Lee's Summit, MO?

Yes he has a storefront iirc. Follow the link in my last post. Ordered the wifes 938sas from him. Real reasonable prices normally.

I had an mp9 4" for a few years. The ergonomics were outstanding but the trigger was the reason I traded it off. The apex trigger wasn't out yet. The 10/8 rear sight helped, if the trigger had been better we might of kept it.

 

[Ian]

FB, since we got you on the witness stand anyway, another question: You built some P-80 "glocks", right? How does the grip angle compare to a 1911? The angle looks to be very much reduced to me, but I wonder how it can feed well if the magazine vs. bore line angle is altered?

 

[Rick H]

I started on the job with an issue S&W 66. We mostly trained with wad cutters and shot up our duty .357 ammo twice a year. I carried a Sig P220 for a number of years before our dept. mandated 40S&W Glocks. I'm not a fan of Glocks but I like the cartridge just fine. I carried a model 23, 14 rds. with one in the chamber, not as accurate as the Sig or S&W but usable. My department's experience has been 40S&W is more effective than the (IMO) vastly over rated .357 mag. I know that is heresy but I was involved in a shooting and as a result, at my earliest opportunity switched to .45ACP.

I don't understand all this talk about 40 S&W recoil being too stout. It is not nearly as stout as a full house .357 in a K frame Smith that was ubiquitous. My every day carry gun is a S&W Shield 40. I use 180 gr. Winchester HP's and they leave the short bbl. at some 950+ fps according to my chrono. It kicks no more than a 1911 Gov't model with 230 Hardball. Considerably less than the Magnum K-frames. My Shield is accurate enough, has been absolutely reliable and is easier to control for rapid repeat shots than any wheel gun I have ever shot...(and I used to average 580 out of 600 on the PPC with a wheel gun)

I am convinced that the LE move towards 9mm's is financial more than anything else. All the blather about recoil and 9's being as effective are excuses to justify saving money on ammo. 40's even at discounted large quantity municipal purchases are twice as expensive as 9mm.

By the way, I had some leading issues with my Shield and Lee 175fr TC cast...powder coating solved that.

 

[Hawk]

Any accuracy deficiencies with the 40 can be resolved with reloading. I can get all of my Glocks down to 1" or 1-1/2", 5 shot groups at 25 yards with a little tweaking.
As for the 10MM, PC'ing bullets let me get the most out of my hand loads. Not trying to really max it out. I just work up the most accurate load and it is usually at the higher end of the velocity spectrum.
I never was much of a "mouse fart" load kinda guy, except in the .38 SPL. I load 3.0 grs. of Green Dot under a 148 gr. wadcutter for the kids to shoot and when introducing new shooters to handguns. Clocks about 650 fps out of my S&W Model 60. Really easy load to shoot accurately and build confidence.

 

[Winelover]

Friend of mine was interested in a forty so we went to a range that rents pistols. He rented a compact S&W MP chambered in 40 caliber (forget which model) and a Glock chambered in 9mm................both were comparable in size. I shot them both with factory ammo.................didn't think that there was that much difference in recoil, between the two. Triggers either................but then I don't have any issues shooting DAO.........in fact I prefer it. I don't own a Glock or S&W, everything but.......Browning, Springfield, Beretta, Kahr, Sig Sauer and a CZ carbine.

I tossed the forty around a bit but since I'm already set up for the nine, I nixed the idea. Of course, this was during the Obama decade when components were hard to get. Been reloading the nine for at least the last forty years.

 

[Ian]

I don't understand all this talk about 40 S&W recoil being too stout.

It isn't that it's too stout, it's that it's a heck of a lot worse than either 9 or 45 in the same platform and gives essentially the same ballistics. I have M&Ps in .45 ACP and .40 and have shot a 9mm M&P a good bit with several loads (including +P+) and the .40 is considerably less fun for what you get out the front end. Nothing wrong with it if the recoil doesn't bother you and you don't keep wanting to put it down and pick up the .45 next to it at the range instead. I'll stick to .45 ACP, it gives me eight rounds to fight my way back to my LR-308

 

[Pistolero]

I had the M&P 45 with some Rem factory 230 ball and the M&P 40 with Win 165 WBox and
Win Wbox 180 JHPs yesterday, same time. About a wash, IMO. Little enough difference
for me that I'd have to have both loaded at the same time, shoot two, lay it down, shoot two,
and such to tell. Laying one down empty, and picking up the other, loading a mag and
shooting it.....so a minute or two between the two... not enough to be certain. Recoil is
very subjective, too. I have friends who tell me that I am completely immune to recoil from
handguns. I don't think so, but these are people I have shot with, many guns, many years, so
perhaps they can judge better than I. Maybe I just can't tell the difference. Hell, I'm crazy
enough to own and shoot (occasionally) a S&W 329 with full power loads.

If I had to use a Glock do defend myself in some odd emergency, I'd relax and focus on getting
the sights aligned and getting hits, so I could, no doubt, work with it. But to preferences, when I
can choose what suits me, it won't be one of Gaston's finest. And trying to be a good instructor,
I make certain to be clear to my students that my personal biases are not in favor of them, but that they
are reliable, accurate and workable - and if they suit you, and you can shoot it well, you should
get one with confidence regardless of MY personal preferences. And some of that is training
related, I recognize. 35 years of serious competition use of various 1911s has built up a certain
level of automatic skills that I am not going to work to undo, but rather work with to be an
advantage.

If I was issued a Glock, and had to use it, I would work to learn it and develop the skills with it.
You use the tools you must, and heck they DO work fine, they are not issuing guns that can't do
the job.

And Al's point is a good one - some guns are trustworthy, reliable tools but provide zero "art and
architecture" value, zippo "heart". Certainly the M&Ps are there. I'd trust it, but not choose it if
I could only have one. Nobody is going to wax poetic about the beauty of that stippled glass
filled nylon frame or the deep, lustrous beauty of that fine Melonite finish. But they are hard as nails,
don't rust, don't wear, feel good in my hand, have a good to very good trigger, and are cheap to
buy and they RUN. And lower bore center than Sigs. A good workman's tool.
Bill

 

[CZ93X62]

Any recoil assessment is pretty subjective. The 40 S&W and 45 ACP ARE "pretty close" in net management effort, which is funny because the two calibers get their energy in such different ways. The 45 is low-pressure, slow-twist, and lead-friendly; the 40 is high-pressure, uber-fast-twist, and sometimes objects to castings.

To me, the 40's "plus" is its ammo capacity in the Commander-sized carry guns that I dote upon--the P-220 offers 7 in the box, the Glock 23 offers 13. In most exchanges of finality, it's 2 rounds/2 seconds/2 yards--except when it isn't. And the world remains a dangerous place--lots of bears in the woods and snakes in the grass, and society puts said predators in "time-out" for shorter and shorter durations--there are more of them out and about capering and depredating on any given day than what is ideal. So, mag capacity has merit, if the goblins come in a duet or three-part-harmony.

 

[popper]

Recoil is different in my xds 9 and xdm 40 but I handle them the same. First time on a pig, running away. 3 shots in the dirt behind him, decided to actually aim and hit in the butt. 165gr TC 4.5gr 231 and went back to front, out the jaw, 25 yds. Prolly 5-6 sec max - they do scoot fast. I normally practice single handed close and double @ 25. Maybe 950 fps? Xds flips a little more.

 

[Pistolero]

.....except when it isn't. Yep. I can refill a 1911 with about 3-4 seconds or so (I have slowed down )
shot to shot. But there may be times when you just don't have 3 seconds to spare. In an El Presidente
in the old days, I could run 6.5 seconds, so the reload couldn' t consume more than about 2 seconds shot
to shot. 2.25 for six, 2 seconds reload, 2.25 for six. Yahoo! I suspect that doing under 8 would be doing
well.

I took a class from Tom Givens a few years ago, and he had been an instructor in Memphis for quite
a while. He commented that he had been a pure 1911 guy for many years, and then after having
dozens of students involved in various shootings (1 think he is over 60 students who have had to
use a gun in self defense and fire shots ) he said, "I realized I was carrying a two-bad-guy gun in a
three-bad-guy town" - meaning that more and more of them were coming in groups.

A gun shop where I used to get FFL transfers done was robbed by four evil doers, and the owners,
both skilled at arms, lost. She was taken out by being struck in the face and knocked unconscious with
a handgun, which started events, and the husband managed to kill one, wound extremely seriously
one, and wound less seriously the third. Yet he died. That was some serious food for thought, about things
like seeking cover before, if possible, or during any engagement, and the real possibility of more than
one or two bad guys.
Still not going to carry a high cap gun, just too inconvenient, but having one in the car seems easy enough
and still potentially useful.

Now that I think back, which I had not until just now, and it did not influence my choice, I believe, IIRC, that Tom
Givens said he had switched to a M&P 40. Hmmm. 1911 guys looking around for guns which suit them
and have more ammo and are not a 9mm......"great minds running in the same channels"? Hah!


Bill

 

[Pistolero]

popper, a good friend from our early IPSC days had a great comment. We had many stages
that ended with a 25 yds 6" stop plate. HAD to hit the stop plate to stop the time.
After watching many shooters throw a whole magazine at the plate in a great hurry, and occasionally
reload and do two or three misses before having that same realization that you had on the pig.
"This really isn't working." Then bear down, take that exta .35 second and hit.

My friend said, "The stop plate will fall to the first aimed shot. Sometimes that is in the second
magazine."

Yep. Excellent point, and sometimes, in the excitement of the moment, getting off shots seems more
important than aiming. Been there, done that.

 

[Ian]

If I think I might need more than eight rounds of .45 ACP I'm taking a .30-caliber battle rifle and a lot of friends with battle rifles and a few sacks full of hand grenades or I'm just plain not going there. MUCH preferably the latter.

 

[Pistolero]

Clint Smith says, "Your handgun is to fight your way back to your rifle, which you never should have
put down to start with."

Truth there.

Long guns are serious. Handguns are emergency tools.

 

[Hawk]

Just like that Texas Sheriff that wore a handgun to an event. One woman who was against handguns ask him if he's expecting trouble. He calmly said no ma'am, if I was expecting trouble I would have brought my shotgun.

 

[Hawk]

Trouble seems to come when you least expect it. I try to avoid areas where there might be trouble, but sometimes, trouble winds up in your area. With bad guys and goblins running more and more in gang's, I'm of the philosophy the more the better.
I feel very undergunned when I'm carrying a small 7 shot 380.

 

[Rick H]

I can't imagine feeling "overgunned" in any gunfight.

 

[popper]

Bill, that was my first experience with pigs and had no idea how fast them critter can run. I kept hitting just behind the rear legs. He went another 50 (on 3 legs) to the fence line and another 50 along it. They don't go down too easy, right Ian?

 

[Pistolero]

Once you recognize the issue is sights, it goes better. It was good that you could see where you
were missing, makes corrections easier. But really easy in a hurry to just 'throw a few', even when
you know better. "Buck fever" applies in many situations, for certain.

I have shot two warthogs. Both ran but were dead and just didn't admit it yet. One hit a tree at
max warp speed, broke a tusk, which the taxidermist fixed invisibly. Those little boogers can
HAUL it. I imagine American pigs are no slower. I shot both throught the heart lung area
with a 250 Keith. The fastest runner whirled 180 deg before running and I saw the bloody spot
on the far side, just where it needed to be, so I was not bothering to even think about a follow
up shot. I could see he was shot straight through within 2" of where I wanted, so he was done.

It would be a real challenge to hit a running pig, I would think.

Bill