Happy 1911
- Thread starter Brad
- Start date
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
Yes, what Brad is talking about was when the ONLY mags that there were had the GI lips. So they wanted
to feed short bullet target ammo, so gunsmiths made mandrels and hammered the front portion of
the lips flat to make early release mags, or what we would today call "hybrid early release mags" because
the still have the taper at the rear which allows the round to rise up as it moves forward, to allow it
to slide up under the extractor - controlled round feeding.
At some point, they went to parallel lips early release mags, and amazingly, most 1911s still run with
them.
Can't make a parallel lip mag into a hybrid, but can make a hybrid into a GI lip style. The curvature is
3/16" radius on the lips. So, a properly supported block with the top at the right angle, and with 3/16"
radius, inserted inside would permit a hybrid mag to have the front, early release part rolled down
to make it into GI lips.
But, like Brad said, easier to buy theim. BUT, if you wanted a full GI mag with other features that
you cannot get elsewhere - you now know how to do it.
Bill
to feed short bullet target ammo, so gunsmiths made mandrels and hammered the front portion of
the lips flat to make early release mags, or what we would today call "hybrid early release mags" because
the still have the taper at the rear which allows the round to rise up as it moves forward, to allow it
to slide up under the extractor - controlled round feeding.
At some point, they went to parallel lips early release mags, and amazingly, most 1911s still run with
them.
Can't make a parallel lip mag into a hybrid, but can make a hybrid into a GI lip style. The curvature is
3/16" radius on the lips. So, a properly supported block with the top at the right angle, and with 3/16"
radius, inserted inside would permit a hybrid mag to have the front, early release part rolled down
to make it into GI lips.
But, like Brad said, easier to buy theim. BUT, if you wanted a full GI mag with other features that
you cannot get elsewhere - you now know how to do it.
Bill
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wquiles
Well-Known Member
Gotcha. Thanks Brad and Bill.
I tried the slow-loading of my primer-less rounds with no spring on the slide, to watch (as you guys suggested) the process in slow-motion, and none of my magazines fed the rounds properly. True, with the "slam" of the slide with the spring installed, they all loaded, but it was clearly a forced and more "violent" process.
I went ahead and ordered two of the Checkmate mags (they were still on special - thanks to whomever posted the link!), so I will try again once come.
Will
I tried the slow-loading of my primer-less rounds with no spring on the slide, to watch (as you guys suggested) the process in slow-motion, and none of my magazines fed the rounds properly. True, with the "slam" of the slide with the spring installed, they all loaded, but it was clearly a forced and more "violent" process.
I went ahead and ordered two of the Checkmate mags (they were still on special - thanks to whomever posted the link!), so I will try again once come.
Will
Just tried making a video to show the difference. The GI lips certainly feed smoother than the hybrid with my ammo. What I learned most of all it that my extractor needs a little work. The case rim is having a bit of trouble sliding under it smoothly.
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
Gee, it turns out that JMB knew what he was about......again.
Brad extractor tuning is easy if you have some small "Swiss" files, mostly made in China nowdays.
This is what you want to wind up with. Smooth radius from bottom to side, polished reasonably well. Don't
do anything to the rear face of the hook. As you know from watching it in slow motion, the rim slides up the
breech face and under the extactor from the bottom. Proper extractor tension is imporant, too. I have said
how I set the tension previously. That is all there is to 1911 extractor tuning.
Most have a 45 deg chamfer, and fairly rough. It can work, especially in the slam-bang high speed, high
energy world of actual firing, but it works better and more smoothly when done like this.
Bill
Brad extractor tuning is easy if you have some small "Swiss" files, mostly made in China nowdays.
This is what you want to wind up with. Smooth radius from bottom to side, polished reasonably well. Don't
do anything to the rear face of the hook. As you know from watching it in slow motion, the rim slides up the
breech face and under the extactor from the bottom. Proper extractor tension is imporant, too. I have said
how I set the tension previously. That is all there is to 1911 extractor tuning.
Most have a 45 deg chamfer, and fairly rough. It can work, especially in the slam-bang high speed, high
energy world of actual firing, but it works better and more smoothly when done like this.
Bill
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I did figure out part of the rough cycling. The dummy rounds I was using were made to assist in resetting the seater. I had never put a taper crimp on them! I crimped them and cycling became far easier.
What really amazed me is how the last round fed very smooth from the GI magazine but hung up a little on the follower dimple in the hybrid lip magazine. Most of my failures to feed were with the last or second to last round. Not a coincidence.
What really amazed me is how the last round fed very smooth from the GI magazine but hung up a little on the follower dimple in the hybrid lip magazine. Most of my failures to feed were with the last or second to last round. Not a coincidence.
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
Here is a small extract from the extractor drawing. Look at Section A-A to see what the original print shows.
1/16th radius is all they put on it. I want a bit larger radius for a bit smoother transition
of the rim under the hook. Many have been a 45 chamfer rather than a radius at all.
And note that 1/32 radius on the bottom edge of the hook.....usually absent in the extractors I
have seen. Doesn't see to hurt to not have it. But it seems like a reasonable thing, with the rim
moving up from the bottom. But rarely seen.
1/16th radius is all they put on it. I want a bit larger radius for a bit smoother transition
of the rim under the hook. Many have been a 45 chamfer rather than a radius at all.
And note that 1/32 radius on the bottom edge of the hook.....usually absent in the extractors I
have seen. Doesn't see to hurt to not have it. But it seems like a reasonable thing, with the rim
moving up from the bottom. But rarely seen.
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Pistolero
Well-Known Member
Brad, the story I have heard on the dimple is that it is there to keep the last round from moving forward
prematurely. I have never been able to see this happening with followers without the dimple. Still not
totally sure about the effect of it or the real need for it. JMB put it there....just because I can't understand
it .....yet.... does not mean it is not useful. But so far, I can't see quite how, and there are few/no real facts
out there on it today.
A good taper crimp helps feeding.....imagine that.
Bill
prematurely. I have never been able to see this happening with followers without the dimple. Still not
totally sure about the effect of it or the real need for it. JMB put it there....just because I can't understand
it .....yet.... does not mean it is not useful. But so far, I can't see quite how, and there are few/no real facts
out there on it today.
A good taper crimp helps feeding.....imagine that.
Bill
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Pistolero
Well-Known Member
If somebody wanted to make a mag lip forming block, here is the relevant portion of the mag
drawing. Also useful just to know what the proper mag lips are supposed to look like.
Amazingly, many/most 1911s will feed from MANY different mag configurations.
But this is what JMB intended. The 3/16 lip radius is seen here (middle removed view)
and the taper of the lips is seen dimensioned in the top view, visible in the right one, too.
Bill
drawing. Also useful just to know what the proper mag lips are supposed to look like.
Amazingly, many/most 1911s will feed from MANY different mag configurations.
But this is what JMB intended. The 3/16 lip radius is seen here (middle removed view)
and the taper of the lips is seen dimensioned in the top view, visible in the right one, too.
Bill
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358156 hp
At large, whereabouts unknown.
Here's the tool for reprofiling 1911 mag lips for wadcutter loads if it helps with the visualization- http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/1911...agazine-lip-forming-tool-for-1911-45-acp.html
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
Yeah, but that is generally going in the wrong direction, these days. Used to be there were no
early release "wadcutter" mags out there, had to use this sort of a tool to modify the GI mags.
But it does show how you could make a tool to reform early release lips into GI lips....reversing history.
Now it is the other way. Essentially ALL new mags are the early release type, almost nobody supplying
GI mags other than Checkmate, and they have government contracts.
And extremely rough breech faces also take energy out of the feed cycle, too. The breech face
should be pretty smooth.
Bill
early release "wadcutter" mags out there, had to use this sort of a tool to modify the GI mags.
But it does show how you could make a tool to reform early release lips into GI lips....reversing history.
Now it is the other way. Essentially ALL new mags are the early release type, almost nobody supplying
GI mags other than Checkmate, and they have government contracts.
And extremely rough breech faces also take energy out of the feed cycle, too. The breech face
should be pretty smooth.
Bill
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wquiles
Well-Known Member
But that is not the best part. I actually took the spring, and repeated the slow motion of loading rounds (which failed miserably with the parallel lipped mags), and it is amazing how much nicer these are
This is my 45 Super 185gr JHP - look at that controlled feed:
185gr GI Mag
This is the WFN, 250gr Cast:
250gr cast GI Mag
It is sad that until I found this thread I had no idea how much my mags were causing most of my feeding problems. I have learned so much on this thread alone - thank you guys
Will
This is my 45 Super 185gr JHP - look at that controlled feed:
185gr GI Mag
This is the WFN, 250gr Cast:
250gr cast GI Mag
It is sad that until I found this thread I had no idea how much my mags were causing most of my feeding problems. I have learned so much on this thread alone - thank you guys
Will
462
California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
Bill,
If you are tuned in, here is a picture of two of the three original Randall magazines, that came with the gun. I reckon the one on the left is of the wadcutter design, but haven't any idea as to what the one on the right would be called.
The remaining magazine is the same as the one on the left, but with a rolled-over follower. What advantage, if any, is there to that kind of follower?
If you are tuned in, here is a picture of two of the three original Randall magazines, that came with the gun. I reckon the one on the left is of the wadcutter design, but haven't any idea as to what the one on the right would be called.
The remaining magazine is the same as the one on the left, but with a rolled-over follower. What advantage, if any, is there to that kind of follower?
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
Hmm. Never saw that right hand kind before. The one on the right is parallel lipped, but way later than normal
release. That would typically hold the back of the round too low, too long, and cause a roof jam as the nose rode
up the feed ramp, and the rear was still held down, producing a steep nose up angle.
Does it WORK? Looks bad to me, but the 1911 is amazingly forgiving of crappy mags.
I am not sure if any real purpose is served by the rolled down nose on the follower on the bottom pic. Maybe it
might make it a bit easier to start a round in when loading the first round. I suspect it is just styling. Maybe
somebody has an idea, not normally seen, others work fine without it. Come to think of it, the Metalform
3D folded and spot welded followers have a rolled down nose like that, too. I still don't think it is functional,
but styling. Look at my post #51 , middle and bottom pix.
But they often feed best with the original JMB lips, now referred to as "GI lips". But, with short nosed
target bullets like H&G130 and the lighter weight SWCs in the 452460 range (185, I think used the same
number as the 200 gr) the early release can be more reliable. And, of course, that is what they were originally
invented for. You need to hand cycle with your gun, and the intended ammo.
With ball ammo or near equivalent, expect the GI lips to feed most smoothly.
Another variable is that all modern barrels are ramped up the sides. The original GI barrels had a narrow
groove in the center, about 3/16 to 1/4" wide, and the rest of the rear of the barrel was dead square corner. This
caused a jam with any round with a SWC that was not DEAD centered all the way. The slightest sideways bias and
the corner hit a corner and JAM. Wide JHPs would often hang on this square edge, too. All bbls that I have seen made
since about late 70s have the barrel ramp all the way around the sides. Actually, not many folks have even
seen the original style barrel feed ramp these days.
Really glad to get some of this info out there, and where it will be seen by many. So much of this info is just
getting lost, falling through the cracks. And a lot of us who know stuff like this are pretty old and who knows
how much longer we can point these things out, keep them from being really lost?
wquiles, now you see how the gun was intended to feed, and you can feel how much smoother it is with some
mags. Those are good videos.
Look what you started, Brad.
Bill
release. That would typically hold the back of the round too low, too long, and cause a roof jam as the nose rode
up the feed ramp, and the rear was still held down, producing a steep nose up angle.
Does it WORK? Looks bad to me, but the 1911 is amazingly forgiving of crappy mags.
I am not sure if any real purpose is served by the rolled down nose on the follower on the bottom pic. Maybe it
might make it a bit easier to start a round in when loading the first round. I suspect it is just styling. Maybe
somebody has an idea, not normally seen, others work fine without it. Come to think of it, the Metalform
3D folded and spot welded followers have a rolled down nose like that, too. I still don't think it is functional,
but styling. Look at my post #51 , middle and bottom pix.
But they often feed best with the original JMB lips, now referred to as "GI lips". But, with short nosed
target bullets like H&G130 and the lighter weight SWCs in the 452460 range (185, I think used the same
number as the 200 gr) the early release can be more reliable. And, of course, that is what they were originally
invented for. You need to hand cycle with your gun, and the intended ammo.
With ball ammo or near equivalent, expect the GI lips to feed most smoothly.
Another variable is that all modern barrels are ramped up the sides. The original GI barrels had a narrow
groove in the center, about 3/16 to 1/4" wide, and the rest of the rear of the barrel was dead square corner. This
caused a jam with any round with a SWC that was not DEAD centered all the way. The slightest sideways bias and
the corner hit a corner and JAM. Wide JHPs would often hang on this square edge, too. All bbls that I have seen made
since about late 70s have the barrel ramp all the way around the sides. Actually, not many folks have even
seen the original style barrel feed ramp these days.
Really glad to get some of this info out there, and where it will be seen by many. So much of this info is just
getting lost, falling through the cracks. And a lot of us who know stuff like this are pretty old and who knows
how much longer we can point these things out, keep them from being really lost?
wquiles, now you see how the gun was intended to feed, and you can feel how much smoother it is with some
mags. Those are good videos.
Look what you started, Brad.
Bill
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I am quite glad I started this!
I learned, my pistol is happier, and best of all, others learned.
I never really payed enough attention to the periodic jams I had. I just figured the gun was never going to be better than 97% reliable.
I was told by a person who is quite knowledgeable on the 1911 that the farther we stray from JMB’s original design the worse the gun becomes. We may modify the gun but we will never improve it.
I learned, my pistol is happier, and best of all, others learned.
I never really payed enough attention to the periodic jams I had. I just figured the gun was never going to be better than 97% reliable.
I was told by a person who is quite knowledgeable on the 1911 that the farther we stray from JMB’s original design the worse the gun becomes. We may modify the gun but we will never improve it.