Heat Treating 50/50

[gman]

Have a question with the process of heat treating in an oven then quenching. I may have missed something but when it comes to the quenching part are you guys just dumping the bullets in cold water say in a 5 gallon bucket or heating them in a container you can lower down into the water? I have quenched bullets from the mold many times but never heat treated in the oven. I was thinking of damage to bullets if you had a tray full then dumping. Thanks!

 

[Brad]

http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

Rick uses pans with holes in them to prevent damage to the soft bullets before quenching.
I don't have pans like that, yet, so I heat them on a tray and let them roll into the water.

Heat them for a full hour! It does matter. I proved that to myself when I tried 30 minutes.

 

[Rick]

Coming out of the oven they are as soft as it's possible to get them. I wouldn't just dump them, I use a tray and lower them into the water carefully.

Here is an article describing the process.

Heat Treating

Here the are three trays I use, notice they are spaced so the middle and top tray don't sit on the bullets.

 

[gman]

Thanks fella's!

 

[Will]

In my experience the 50/50 alloy heat treated to desired hardness does a lot of things good.
I was able to really shrink my groups in my 357 maximum while maintaining a malleable alloy to hunt with.

 

[JWFilips]

Rick,
What is the reason to "gas check first" before heat treating?
Jim

 

[Brad]

It lets you size the bullet and crimp the check, heat treat, then lube in a .001 larger size die. If you seat a check at the end the check will be a bit larger than the rest of the bullet.
You are also crimping a check on a softer rather than harder bullet.

That is what Brad thinks but he is no Rick

 

[Rick]

Because sizing and check installation is done in one step and Rick has no desire to size heat treated bullets. That is tough on the sizer and tough on Rick. Once sized with the checks on they can be heat treated at your convenience.

 

[Brad]

My Star, like Rick, dislikes hard bullets being sized down much. A Lee push thru in my press doesn't care but the Star just doesn't have the leverage.
I actually prefer a push thru sizer in the press for initial sizing and check seating. Less effort and it keeps wear off the Star.

 

[Rick]

A Lee push thru in my press doesn't care but the Star just doesn't have the leverage.

Well, except for that pesky work softening the driving bands which is the part you want harder.

 

[JWFilips]

Just wonder if you checked & sized within an hour after heat treating if that would matter all than much ( softening the drive bands)
Doesn't it take a few days to achieve hardness?

 

[Rick]

When I was competing my most used bullet was 35 caliber, I normally heat treated about 300 at a time from a box all sized & checked. I never sized right after a long casting session, they went into a box & were sized & checked when I had the chance. As I needed more bullets they went into the oven, allowed to dry for a day and then lubed with a die .001" larger than the sizing die all ready to load & shoot. Yes, they need some time to age harden after heat treating. How much time depends on the Sb percentage of the alloy but since I was drawing from about an 800 pound lot of all the same alloy 3 days was all they needed.

Fact is the 357 FA revolver with top end loads is the only bullet I needed to heat treat, everything else I shoot including rifles to 2000 fps does just fine with air cooled WW +2% Sn at 12 BHN. Low pressure rounds such as 45 ACP I use an air cooled softer alloy at about 8 BHN. Many people strive for and shoot bullets much harder than is really needed. If they are working for you all is good but "hard" is very much over rated.

 

[freebullet]

That's surprising Rick.
I've been wondering about your experience with the 454 and would love to hear any details you'd be willing to share about the, alloys, loads, boolit designs, & particulars that worked best for you.

I'm working with a gp100 & srh454 trying to get them shooting without any gas checks. It's not to hard with the lower velocity rounds but, when pushing them fast the 12ish bhn hasn't been as accurate as those slightly harder.

 

[Rick]

I've never tried PB in the 454 or looked for very top end or very light loads, I was looking for acceptable momentum on 200 meter rams. I did experiment with various heat treated BHN's of clip-on wheel weight +2% Sn from 12 to 30. Even in the 454 there is such a thing as too hard, most loads worked best in the 18-20 BHN range with this alloy.

 

[JWFilips]

Rick,
95% of the time I use a 50 COWW+ 50 Pure with 2 % extra tin air cooled Pretty much universal. However I have been hardening my NOE 246-105 because it needs speed to shoot well. My newest project Is to get that Old JP Sauer Mauser shooing better & I noticed that it seems to like slow powders with a harder bullet to spin it up correctly (Barrel is very worn) that is why I'm thinking of heat treating the bullets I have cast up from 2 years ago

 

[Rick]

Jim, certainly nothing wrong with heat treating, I do it myself when testing has proven it to be a benefit. My post was written mostly for those that may be caught up in the "hardcast" craze, No shortage of folks that believe if they aren't shooting diamonds it couldn't possibly work. That's not to imply that's you, a lot of my posts attempt to answer a question and also leave a little something for the new caster.

 

[freebullet]

Rick
What velocity range/boolit weight are you speaking of for rams with the 454? Sorry, don't mean to bombard you with questions.

 

[Rick]

240 grain bullet with IMR 4198 at about 1425 fps. PITA to load for but it shot so well I did it. I don't remember the charge right now but it took a bunch to get the velocity up, it took so much that the only way to get enough in the case was to trickle it in through a drop tube and compress it with the bullet.

I bought the FA 454 for silhouette shooting when they were brand new on the market. I didn't get it because I wanted to use the 454 in silhouette, I bought it because I wanted an FA and at that time FA offered ONE caliber - the 454. I wasn't about to shoot 40-60-80 round matches with full bore 454 loads and immediately started on a quest for sane loads that shot well. Settled on 4198 and it basically shot like a good load in a 44 mag.

 

[freebullet]

Excellent, thank you!

I'm up to about 3 rounds with the srh before I notice hand fatigue begin. I can easily finish a 6 round cylinder but it gets to biting my finger. The full power loads are quite insane.

My wife & I have enjoyed getting to know the gun with 300gr at 1100fps. Very fun loads & no checks needed. I have some boolits aging for faster load tests to come.

I dumped mine for quenching. That multi tray unit is a nifty way to avoid damage. The Devils in the details.

 

[JWFilips]

Jim, certainly nothing wrong with heat treating, I do it myself when testing has proven it to be a benefit. My post was written mostly for those that may be caught up in the "hardcast" craze, No shortage of folks that believe if they aren't shooting diamonds it couldn't possibly work. That's not to imply that's you, a lot of my posts attempt to answer a question and also leave a little something for the new caster.

Rick
You Lads and Dads ( & I say that because I'm surprised how young some of you are "Especially Ian!"):
I was an older guy trying to shoot cast bullets in my pistols and all I got On my range was that lead better be HARD! Otherwise you'll mess up you pistols..... I sort of knew better & found you guys over "There" Instantly I had some real Guru's!
Guys that thought like me but really knew their stuff. I learned to Smelt ( In the proper fashion) I learned to cast ( In the proper fashion) & then I was able to wander around And find things out by what I have learned!
None of you "Wise guys" (and I mean that lovingly) can every upset me or say the wrong thing! If you did I would call you out on it because I have learned well! From You Guys!
I just love this place!
Jim