How about we discuss using Lee Tumble Lube cast bullets?

[Tomme boy]

I remember it was one guy that said he had a problem using the HF black. He probably finally got his barrel clean and it looked different to him. That may have been why he stated it wore his barrel. I don't believe it one bit. Certain 22rf has glass in the primers and it can lead to wear but not plastic unless it has glass mixed in with it.

 

[Wallyl]

I've noticed that on many forums, when TL is discussed, the discussion always seems to change to be about Powder Coating. It happened on this thread as well. What I was hoping for was that "we" discuss your experiences with TL bullets has been, why you like or don't like them. I don't mean to be nasty about it...but commentary about PC isn't germane to this thread.

 

[Brad]

I have used TL bullets a bit. Was nicer a huge fan of TL. I likely used too much and it made a mess of my seating and crimp dies.
That mess and my dislike of it led me to explore other avenues.

Sometimes it isn’t just the lube but the entire experience, the demands on the lube, available designs, and our expectations.

My FIL and I often do things very differently in casting. He is retired, I am not. He will do things to save money by spending time. I often spend money to save time. No right or wrong answer, just different needs at the time.

TL would likely have been more widely accepted had it been more than a Lee “thing”.

 

[Wallyl]

I think that many still are buying Lee TL bullet molds, as Lee drops production of molds that don't sell. However maybe many try them to avoid having to buy a lube/sizer and eventually moved to regular lubed cast bullets. When I first tried them I backed off quickly; all due to the mess you stated. Then I saw the new 45-45-10 lube and experimented with lubing with XLOX letting it dry then re-lubing with liquid car wax. That worked superbly, so now I am using TL bullets again. Last year I shot many test groups with TL bullets vs regular cast...I found they were just as accurate. I shoot many thousands of pistol rounds a year. I like the fact that I can save time using the TL bullets; lubing and sizing regular bullets IMHO is not very enjoyable...however case trimming is even worse! One huge mistake that Lee has made is charging so much for 4 ounces of Liquid Alox ($6.79 at Midway).....I bought 32 ounces of XLOX for $13.95. Xlox is much thicker and goes further than the Lee product....you just thin it a bit with Charcoal lighter fluid.

 

[fiver]

i'll sum up why P/C is brought up when T/L bullets are discussed.
the two 'lubes' work on the same principal.
they are a barrier between the lead, and the steel of the barrel.
nothing more and nothing less.

a normal lube works by laying down a little bit in the barrel and the next bullet comes along and rides on that and the powder fouling.
tumble lube just rides along on the bullet providing that same little barrier.

as far as the designs themselves.
they basically provide the same amount of lead to barrel contact at a normal bullet does it's just broken up and spread out over the same distance.
the T/L designs rely on holding the gas back with that big rear band they have and if a small amount of gas blows by it is a catastrophe.
whereas the normal bullets have that semi-liquid stop gap to seal and fill in the edges.

 

[Brad]

I dislike case trimming as well so I rarely do it.

Being a Lee development pretty much assured the casting world that Lyman and RCBS would never make moulds or sizers for them.

Casters tend to be creatures of habit and often hold certain attitudes towards some manufacturers. With Lee being seen by many as a budget reloading tool company the concept was never going to be accepted by a large segment.

 

[Ian]

I've noticed that on many forums, when TL is discussed, the discussion always seems to change to be about Powder Coating. It happened on this thread as well. What I was hoping for was that "we" discuss your experiences with TL bullets has been, why you like or don't like them. I don't mean to be nasty about it...but commentary about PC isn't germane to this thread.

Well by that logic, the discussion of liquid Alox isn't germane to the discussion either. You asked, and we have been sharing our experiences with TL bullets, it just happens that most of us use a different coating than you do....and the way the microbands work with the plastic coating is why many of us like them. Do you want to discuss the bullet design itself, or the liquid lubes only?

 

[Winelover]

IMO, TL was meant for the budget minded caster. A novice could dab his feet into the casting water and not lay out a large amount of cash on a lubersizer. Their advantageous, if shooting as cast bullets............just dump from mould into a container and apply the liquid lube. If I'm going to size bullets, might as well be done on a machine that sizes and lubes in one step.

Thread drift in unavoidable unless you specify...............PC comments----no need to respond.

 

[Wallyl]

Yes, I just trimmed many hundreds of rifle cases that were way too long...I shot cast bullets only with them and never thought they'd "grow"....boy do I hate trimming brass.

I woudl guess so....the competition preferred to ignore Lees TL concept; although Lyman did sell a Liquid Alox products for a short time.

No doubt...I know many long time shooters that abhor anything from Lee. They are quite amused that I still am using Lee bullet molds since 1970. The new trend is fancy/expensive aluminum molds offered by a few companies. Their "fans" no longer are happy with Lyman (too many undersized molds) and RCBS. I keep on casting with my fragile and low tech Lee DC molds that have & will serve me well.

 

[Wallyl]

Ian, I guess it goes without saying that one has to use Liquid Alox on TL bullets...goes hand in hand. My first post mentioned my use of Liquid Alox on mine and then I "graduated" to a second liquid car wax coat.

 

[Winelover]

Don't like trimming rifle brass.................get an RCBS X-die and you will only have to trim, initially. Providing, you set it up correctly. I never had to trim pistol brass.

 

[fiver]

trimming brass is just another handle pull.
if i get off my duff today I will have the last of a 1-K batch of 0-6 brass sized and trimmed no problem.
the choke point for me is champhering.
I could have sized and trimmed the whole batch in one day with time leftover to anneal them, if I wasn't doing the other stuff too.

 

[Winelover]

Champhering goes along with trimming........so it's lumped in together, in my book.

 

[Winelover]

Nothing wrong with Lee moulds................if you don't mind fussing with them. I want a mould that works right out of the box and drops bullets of the appropriate size. Not going to do any Lee-menting. I own exactly one Lee mould. Conical for my ROA.

I started casting in the 70's. No internet, no forums, no mentor. Learned by trial and error. I started with RCBS iron moulds and they served me well. No doubt, saved a lot of frustration. Back then RCBS mould could be had new @ $30, IIRC.

Casting equipment is comparable to tools................buy good quality and reap the enjoyment.

 

[fiver]

30-35 sounds about right, they were 42-45 by the mid to late 90s.
airc you could get either a lyman or an RCBS for right about the same 45$

 

[Ian]

Ian, I guess it goes without saying that one has to use Liquid Alox on TL bullets...goes hand in hand. My first post mentioned my use of Liquid Alox on mine and then I "graduated" to a second liquid car wax coat.

It doesn't go without saying anymore; as you discovered, most people "graduated" to powder coat for their TL bullets because one does not HAVE to use liquid Alox or lubes based on such. That assumption lead to your frustration. Nobody had any suspicion that mentioning PC would ruffle your feathers, either. My apologies.

The best liquid lube I've used by far to date on any bullet, tumble lube or not, is Ben's Liquid Lube. Like many others who are fond of the formula, I bought a large supply of one of the ingredients before it was discontinued. Very sad that BLL can't be made with available ingredients today, his recipe is head and shoulders above any other I've used.

 

[Wallyl]

I am not upset..this is an open forum and discussion. Maybe one day I'll convert over to PC.... Saw many other threads on the TL topic; all of then quickly degenerated into a forum for PC and why it is so much better. I still have a house phone, use Lee bullet molds, & don't have a smart phone....I am way behind the times.

 

[Winelover]

Your not alone...............

 

[Walks]

I think most Postings here have explained the same transition from TL - Lube-Sizer - PC.

I started TL sorta by accident. I have used a Lube-Sizer since I was very small. I have a hazy memory of putting a bullet on top of a sizing die for an older Brother to pull down on the handle.

Three years ago or so it fell to me to supply bullets too for My Cowboy Shooting Chiropractor. I was having trouble getting a proper size mold from Lyman.
So I bought a mold from N.O.E. it was a New TL design for them. I didn't realize it was a TL at the time I bought it. A #432-240-RF
Then the Lyman #429667 arrived and cast proper sized bullets.

Crimping the N.O.E. bullet over the ogive gave a shorter OAL, thus being able to fit 9 rounds into his WIN. 44 Trapper. So of course that's what he wanted.
The first 200 went thru a .430 Lube-Sizer. Minimal leading, 50/50 lube.
Another 200 were TL with WLL 45/45/10 and sized in a Lee .431 size die. Very minimal leading.
The last 200 were PC'd with Eastwood Squirrel gray, sized .431 in the Lee sizer, Dawn dish soap was used as a lube for sizing. Messy, but NO leading.

Then decision was made for PC, using a bit of Hornady Spray Lube for sizing. Far less messy.
500 rounds were made up. Cleaning guns showed no leading.

As far as case trimming goes, I had a friend who shot A LOT OF .223 in an MSR.
I did his case prep. All the factory (Fed) ammo He shot up was way too long. I sized them in an RCBS sm base die.
I used a Lyman powered Case Trimmer, with a Lyman Case Prep Express behind it. The combination allowed me to trim, chamber & deburr approximately 150 cases an hour. Ream primer pockets too.
A RCBS X-Die was then used for sizing.
And Matt would shoot A LOT of .223, He would go to the Range at lunch and burn thru 500 rounds.
I trimmed 5,000 cases in a year. PD's shot at the Range during the week, He picked up a whole bunch of .223/5.56 brass not to mention 9mm, 40S&W & .45ACP.

I really hate the auto-correct on this tablet.

 

[JonB]

SNIP...

as far as the designs themselves.
they basically provide the same amount of lead to barrel contact at a normal bullet does it's just broken up and spread out over the same distance.
the T/L designs rely on holding the gas back with that big rear band they have and if a small amount of gas blows by it is a catastrophe.
whereas the normal bullets have that semi-liquid stop gap to seal and fill in the edges.

When I had lead fouling issues when I loaded some 9s & 40s with Lee's TL bullets, I always blamed the lube, thinking it couldn't handle the higher pressures. Thanks for pointing out that it was highly likely a mechanical failure...as that answers a question or three (that have always been rolling around in the back of my head), about the failures I had...and possibly the failures I had with PC'd bullets (piglet method) that were given to me to play with.

All you enablers here are likely to get me to try applying my own PC someday.