How to make better reloads
- Thread starter Kevin Stenberg
- Start date
RBHarter
West Central AR
Under things that have made a big difference .
I had a rifle I couldn't keep on a gallon antifreeze jug at 50 yd with factory ammo . It had a huge over sized groove with a nominal bore . I got it down to 8" at 100 . That doesn't sound like much but it was a big deal in that rifle . I got it down to 6" and at that point it was more work than it was worth .......I changed primers an was rewarded with a 3×5 for as many as I wanted to shoot that was repeatable .
Weigh lotting cases . If you have a set of one lot of cases , case weight is as good as water volume . I had an 06' that knew the difference in case volume displayed by 1 pellet of #6 shot and it would park a bullet 12" out 100% of the time for it . It didn't seem to give a rip about how far it was to the lands it did shoot faster with a .300 jump than with a .005 ......
I've had a 308 rifle that would shoot 2" within 3" of point of hold with anything that fell of the shelf and into the action ......with 1 exception . It refused to shoot any bullet over 175 gr . It would shoot 172 gr LR Match and the 301618 PP 172gr but not 3 different 180 RN that were shorter than it's best 150 BTSP . It even shot a 175 gr very manipulated cast PP bullet well but not those that tipped heavy .......
The 06' that had the case capacity bug above closed groups 2" for neck only sizing and if I bumped gently with a 308 die I cold get 6-7 cycles before I had to FL size . I eventually had a releived die that would do the shoulder bump and only size the body about .0005 that worked out well .
Neck ream/turn I haven't needed yet to make something shoot .
I didn't big jumps from a host of other things like flash hole deburing , yes it made a difference to the chrony but not to anything inside 300 yd .
When you get a rifle and the first load puts 5 shots inside a bottle cap and the next 10 don't change that your done ..... Even if you're using 7mm RM brass one passed into 264 WM and loaded with W857 and H1000 data and it only books the 140 PP at a sedate 2800 fps . You just leave it alone . A paper patched 260-120 NOE sized 258 & 265 slapped by 16 gr of Unique shot well enough to call it done although cast data says I can go all the way to 26.0 .......
My conclusions ?
Matching cases .
An agreeable bullet .
An agreeable primer .
A suited powder .
An appropriate OAL .
That's 85% of the very best load any given rifle or pistol is going to shoot .
The other 15% is a lot of work and becomes important only after the quest for the 110 yd group becomes a matter of a bullet dia or less .
The gun of course needs to be solid but we were only speaking to the loads .
I had a rifle I couldn't keep on a gallon antifreeze jug at 50 yd with factory ammo . It had a huge over sized groove with a nominal bore . I got it down to 8" at 100 . That doesn't sound like much but it was a big deal in that rifle . I got it down to 6" and at that point it was more work than it was worth .......I changed primers an was rewarded with a 3×5 for as many as I wanted to shoot that was repeatable .
Weigh lotting cases . If you have a set of one lot of cases , case weight is as good as water volume . I had an 06' that knew the difference in case volume displayed by 1 pellet of #6 shot and it would park a bullet 12" out 100% of the time for it . It didn't seem to give a rip about how far it was to the lands it did shoot faster with a .300 jump than with a .005 ......
I've had a 308 rifle that would shoot 2" within 3" of point of hold with anything that fell of the shelf and into the action ......with 1 exception . It refused to shoot any bullet over 175 gr . It would shoot 172 gr LR Match and the 301618 PP 172gr but not 3 different 180 RN that were shorter than it's best 150 BTSP . It even shot a 175 gr very manipulated cast PP bullet well but not those that tipped heavy .......
The 06' that had the case capacity bug above closed groups 2" for neck only sizing and if I bumped gently with a 308 die I cold get 6-7 cycles before I had to FL size . I eventually had a releived die that would do the shoulder bump and only size the body about .0005 that worked out well .
Neck ream/turn I haven't needed yet to make something shoot .
I didn't big jumps from a host of other things like flash hole deburing , yes it made a difference to the chrony but not to anything inside 300 yd .
When you get a rifle and the first load puts 5 shots inside a bottle cap and the next 10 don't change that your done ..... Even if you're using 7mm RM brass one passed into 264 WM and loaded with W857 and H1000 data and it only books the 140 PP at a sedate 2800 fps . You just leave it alone . A paper patched 260-120 NOE sized 258 & 265 slapped by 16 gr of Unique shot well enough to call it done although cast data says I can go all the way to 26.0 .......
My conclusions ?
Matching cases .
An agreeable bullet .
An agreeable primer .
A suited powder .
An appropriate OAL .
That's 85% of the very best load any given rifle or pistol is going to shoot .
The other 15% is a lot of work and becomes important only after the quest for the 110 yd group becomes a matter of a bullet dia or less .
The gun of course needs to be solid but we were only speaking to the loads .
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Lotta good thoughts here.
I did the neck turning thing for a while. I made nice even necks, didn't see a difference on the target. I reamed necks too, outside of getting rid of "the donut" I saw no improvement. I uniformed primer pockets, that helped make primers seat consistently, but no big diff in groups. I checked runout out on loaded cartridges. THAT ONE made a big difference! Found out I was bending bullets when I got going too fast while casting and dropping them. Also found some seating dies allowed a lot more runout than I thought they would. Neck sizing helps IME, FL sizing can open groups sometimes. These days I can't shoot well enough (eyesight) to tell a 1/2" improvement at 100, maybe an inch on a good day, but that's about it. Those gifted with good eyes and shooting habits benefit a lot more from things others don't I would imagine.
I did the neck turning thing for a while. I made nice even necks, didn't see a difference on the target. I reamed necks too, outside of getting rid of "the donut" I saw no improvement. I uniformed primer pockets, that helped make primers seat consistently, but no big diff in groups. I checked runout out on loaded cartridges. THAT ONE made a big difference! Found out I was bending bullets when I got going too fast while casting and dropping them. Also found some seating dies allowed a lot more runout than I thought they would. Neck sizing helps IME, FL sizing can open groups sometimes. These days I can't shoot well enough (eyesight) to tell a 1/2" improvement at 100, maybe an inch on a good day, but that's about it. Those gifted with good eyes and shooting habits benefit a lot more from things others don't I would imagine.
Secrets of the Houston Warehouse – Lessons In Extreme Rifle Accuracy
Back in 1993, Precision Shooting Magazine printed a landmark article about the findings of a group o...
Appropriate to discussions such as this. It's a very good read. My take away is that all other things being quality and 'right with the world', case prep is ultimately the most important.
Some things are just meant to go together. Others not. Just gotta find the match up to suit yourself. Good thread, keep it coming.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
This thread and the 1/4" of ice on my sidewalk and driveway (no match for me this morning) drove me to the basement to take a much closer look at my .30-06 cases. Initially, I was just going to weigh them all. But I decided to de-prime and neck size them and as I looked a bit closer than usual, I could see my necks were no longer square to the axis of the case. Boy, did that start me down a rabbit hole.
After neck sizing the 60 cases, measured every one to find the shortest and that became my length baseline. Got on the case trimmer and started trimming. Thought I would never get to the end. But eventually, got them all within a couple of thousandths in length and deburred. Then I decided to take another shot at any burrs that that might have been missed when I first processed these cases when new. Deburred all 60 cases. It was during the deburring process that I noticed how filthy they were inside. But I weighed them anyway and almost all were withing +/- 1 grain. I had three that were 1.1 to 1.2 grains out from the baseline case. So that and the view down the casemouth during the deburring process had me drag out the ultrasonic cleaner and fill it with HD Simple Green and start running small batches of cases for 30 minutes in heated SG. While I was running the first batch, I took a small dental probe with a convex scraping tip and ran it up the inside of a case. It came out with a big lump of carbon. Running them thru the ultrasonic cleaner was the right thing to do. They have been rinsed in hot water and then rinsed in denatured alcohol and are drying in a dainties bag under a vent in my heater duct in the basement. I'm going to go back down and run them across the digital scale again to see if the weights have improved.
Next Sunday's match will be a centerfire match. We'll see if my newly squared and equally trimmed necks will show up as better group sizes. I think I'll be extra anal in loading those rounds for that match. Of course, if the wind is blowing, all bets are off. That's when it becomes a true team sport and a spotter/shooter's game.
After neck sizing the 60 cases, measured every one to find the shortest and that became my length baseline. Got on the case trimmer and started trimming. Thought I would never get to the end. But eventually, got them all within a couple of thousandths in length and deburred. Then I decided to take another shot at any burrs that that might have been missed when I first processed these cases when new. Deburred all 60 cases. It was during the deburring process that I noticed how filthy they were inside. But I weighed them anyway and almost all were withing +/- 1 grain. I had three that were 1.1 to 1.2 grains out from the baseline case. So that and the view down the casemouth during the deburring process had me drag out the ultrasonic cleaner and fill it with HD Simple Green and start running small batches of cases for 30 minutes in heated SG. While I was running the first batch, I took a small dental probe with a convex scraping tip and ran it up the inside of a case. It came out with a big lump of carbon. Running them thru the ultrasonic cleaner was the right thing to do. They have been rinsed in hot water and then rinsed in denatured alcohol and are drying in a dainties bag under a vent in my heater duct in the basement. I'm going to go back down and run them across the digital scale again to see if the weights have improved.
Next Sunday's match will be a centerfire match. We'll see if my newly squared and equally trimmed necks will show up as better group sizes. I think I'll be extra anal in loading those rounds for that match. Of course, if the wind is blowing, all bets are off. That's when it becomes a true team sport and a spotter/shooter's game.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
As a follow up, I just went down and weighed my freshly laundered and trimmed cases. Here are the results.
43 cases +/- 0.5 gr.
16 cases +/- 1.0 gr
1 case 1.2 gr
Might rummage thru my remaining new Fed cases to see if I can find 17 cases to fall within the specs of the other 43.
43 cases +/- 0.5 gr.
16 cases +/- 1.0 gr
1 case 1.2 gr
Might rummage thru my remaining new Fed cases to see if I can find 17 cases to fall within the specs of the other 43.
fiver
Well-Known Member
if you have one of those neck gauges you can run your cases over it and see the striations of the case being thicker and thinner.
those are what a neck turner is taking off.
unfortunately they run the length of the case and that is where much of your weight variations are coming from.
but it's also a way to sort cases to find the most concentric ones.
good to see you again Corky.
those are what a neck turner is taking off.
unfortunately they run the length of the case and that is where much of your weight variations are coming from.
but it's also a way to sort cases to find the most concentric ones.
good to see you again Corky.
Ian
Notorious member
Sundog.
Everyone needs to read that article at least a half dozen times. And pay attention to what the gentleman said in the last lines of it. “It is in the way you prep the brass”.Secrets of the Houston Warehouse – Lessons In Extreme Rifle Accuracy
Back in 1993, Precision Shooting Magazine printed a landmark article about the findings of a group o...precisionrifleblog.com
Appropriate to discussions such as this. It's a very good read. My take away is that all other things being quality and 'right with the world', case prep is ultimately the most important.
Some things are just meant to go together. Others not. Just gotta find the match up to suit yourself. Good thread, keep it coming.
If you can find accuracy and a low ES then you have found money. I have 1 rifle, with 2 bullets and loads that will deliver sub 1/2 MOA groups and single digit ES this becomes evident in shooting 1.25 inch groups at 425 yards. Consistently. It’s all about allocation. If you need to shoot at distance then you need to spend the time making every round as consistent as possible. If 100 yards is it doenst matter. The above mentioned Rolfe will only do single digit ES with a CCI 250 and a Wim LRM. It goes to pot with a federal primer. So it mot just powder that will affect the load the most. It’s a combination of getting it all to work right.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
The problem is that lots of old times folks think that five 5-shot groups at 100 yards is the end all and be all of precision shooting. Jacketed bullet shooting is way past that, and cast is coming close. IMHO
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Hey Corky! Long time man! Wasn't Felix Robbins involved in the Warehouse project? He spoke of it often.Secrets of the Houston Warehouse – Lessons In Extreme Rifle Accuracy
Back in 1993, Precision Shooting Magazine printed a landmark article about the findings of a group o...
Appropriate to discussions such as this. It's a very good read. My take away is that all other things being quality and 'right with the world', case prep is ultimately the most important.
Some things are just meant to go together. Others not. Just gotta find the match up to suit yourself. Good thread, keep it coming.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
Consistency = Accuracy
If your goal is accuracy, then you work to eliminate as many variables as possible. However, there are diminishing returns to that work, so at some point other factors will become controlling factors.
Assuming we are talking about rifle ammunition, lets look at how we can reduce the variables.
First, load brass shot in one gun for only that gun. This may seem simple, but casings fired from a particular rifle will often perform better in that rifle the next time.
Used the same casings. Not just brand but lot number if possible.
Sort the casings by weight. Differences in the thickness of the brass will result in differences of internal volume. You may have to start with many in order to end up with a few.
Size the brass as little as possible. Neck size only if you can get away with it in your rifle.
Trim casings after sizing and turn the necks to a consistent thickness if needed. The ream verses turning necks debate will go on for hours, Personally I think turning the necks against a mandrel makes more sense if your goal is consistent neck wall thickness.
Squaring primer pockets and de-burring flash holes probably doesn’t do much in the end but it is a one-time operation for a casing, and it eliminates a potential variable.
Moving onto the bullet. Sorting bullets by weight may seem a bit extreme but it allows you to eliminate a potential flyer caused by a manufacturing defect that you could not otherwise detect.
Powder charge. Set your powder measure to drop a charge weight slightly below the desired amount and then trickle the powder into the pan to bring each charge up to an exact amount.
Bullet seating. The bullet needs to be straight in the casing. Good dies are the only way to make that happen.
Crimp- Most bottle neck rifle cartridges will get a taper crimp. Just enough to hold the bullet in place and they ALL need to be the same.
Overall Length, WOW, this causes a lot of discussion. If you have consistent case necks and minimal run-out, this probably isn’t as critical as some folks think. I tend to err on the side of longer OAL than shorter but unless you have a grossly oversized chamber or long throat, this probably isn’t a huge factor. As long as your loads are consistent in length, you will probably be OK.
Bottom Line – Eliminate as many variables as possible in your prep work on casings. (same casings, shot from the same rifle, all sorted and culled, all prep work done). Pick a bullet and DON’T change it! Pick a primer and don’t change it.
Pick a powder. Then pick a charge weight near the max but not max. Work your way up towards max loads and STOP when you get the best group at or under the maximum safe charge weight. Write that down and leave it alone.
If your goal is accuracy, then you work to eliminate as many variables as possible. However, there are diminishing returns to that work, so at some point other factors will become controlling factors.
Assuming we are talking about rifle ammunition, lets look at how we can reduce the variables.
First, load brass shot in one gun for only that gun. This may seem simple, but casings fired from a particular rifle will often perform better in that rifle the next time.
Used the same casings. Not just brand but lot number if possible.
Sort the casings by weight. Differences in the thickness of the brass will result in differences of internal volume. You may have to start with many in order to end up with a few.
Size the brass as little as possible. Neck size only if you can get away with it in your rifle.
Trim casings after sizing and turn the necks to a consistent thickness if needed. The ream verses turning necks debate will go on for hours, Personally I think turning the necks against a mandrel makes more sense if your goal is consistent neck wall thickness.
Squaring primer pockets and de-burring flash holes probably doesn’t do much in the end but it is a one-time operation for a casing, and it eliminates a potential variable.
Moving onto the bullet. Sorting bullets by weight may seem a bit extreme but it allows you to eliminate a potential flyer caused by a manufacturing defect that you could not otherwise detect.
Powder charge. Set your powder measure to drop a charge weight slightly below the desired amount and then trickle the powder into the pan to bring each charge up to an exact amount.
Bullet seating. The bullet needs to be straight in the casing. Good dies are the only way to make that happen.
Crimp- Most bottle neck rifle cartridges will get a taper crimp. Just enough to hold the bullet in place and they ALL need to be the same.
Overall Length, WOW, this causes a lot of discussion. If you have consistent case necks and minimal run-out, this probably isn’t as critical as some folks think. I tend to err on the side of longer OAL than shorter but unless you have a grossly oversized chamber or long throat, this probably isn’t a huge factor. As long as your loads are consistent in length, you will probably be OK.
Bottom Line – Eliminate as many variables as possible in your prep work on casings. (same casings, shot from the same rifle, all sorted and culled, all prep work done). Pick a bullet and DON’T change it! Pick a primer and don’t change it.
Pick a powder. Then pick a charge weight near the max but not max. Work your way up towards max loads and STOP when you get the best group at or under the maximum safe charge weight. Write that down and leave it alone.
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L Ross
Well-Known Member
Hasn't this all been hashed over at the CBA? Tests run doing this that and the other thing to brass, sorting, weighing, massaging? Where are the results? They still aren't breaking 1/2 MOA at matches with some extremely serious shooters running the unlimited equipment.
Oh well, as for me it just needs to be good enough. Good enough to hit the targets I shoot at if I don't make a mistake. Good enough to effectively kill a deer if I need to. Good enough to force me to practice and try to exercise good technique. My greatest joy in shooting comes through success at off hand shooting. Give me a tub of pretty darned good cast bullet reloads, or some semi decent .22 ammo, some steel knock down targets, and the whiz bang offhand shooting neighbor kid to challenge me and turn me loose for a couple of hours.
I appreciate what I have learned here from a bunch of guys more serious about the science and the art who have made it easier for me to get my 2 MOA ammo down to about 1.25/1.50 MOA. Being unwilling to spend 10 bucks a box or more for .22 ammo, about 1.25 MOA is the best I have found in a couple of pretty good 22's. My goal is to shoot 4 MOA offhand 100% of the time. I will never attain that goal, never. But I cannot blame 1.5 MOA ammo for my inability to shoot that well.
Then there is the enormous satisfaction attained by being able to make my own. Not to mention the cost savings. When another neighbor came over and told me he had to limit his shooting because his ammo cost $3.00/ea. I was appalled. I simply would never enjoy shooting at all if I thought I was throwing a 50 cent piece down range every time I yanked the trigger.
So you guys go ahead and be as anal ytical as you want, I'll pick up some scraps off the floor that you all drop here in print. Like the RCBS Gold Medal X dies, game changers for me. I really really need to powder coat. My only excuses are it is non traditional and I am pretty happy with my results as of now. If we really want to improve reloading we need to come up with a cheap substitute for primers!
Oh well, as for me it just needs to be good enough. Good enough to hit the targets I shoot at if I don't make a mistake. Good enough to effectively kill a deer if I need to. Good enough to force me to practice and try to exercise good technique. My greatest joy in shooting comes through success at off hand shooting. Give me a tub of pretty darned good cast bullet reloads, or some semi decent .22 ammo, some steel knock down targets, and the whiz bang offhand shooting neighbor kid to challenge me and turn me loose for a couple of hours.
I appreciate what I have learned here from a bunch of guys more serious about the science and the art who have made it easier for me to get my 2 MOA ammo down to about 1.25/1.50 MOA. Being unwilling to spend 10 bucks a box or more for .22 ammo, about 1.25 MOA is the best I have found in a couple of pretty good 22's. My goal is to shoot 4 MOA offhand 100% of the time. I will never attain that goal, never. But I cannot blame 1.5 MOA ammo for my inability to shoot that well.
Then there is the enormous satisfaction attained by being able to make my own. Not to mention the cost savings. When another neighbor came over and told me he had to limit his shooting because his ammo cost $3.00/ea. I was appalled. I simply would never enjoy shooting at all if I thought I was throwing a 50 cent piece down range every time I yanked the trigger.
So you guys go ahead and be as anal ytical as you want, I'll pick up some scraps off the floor that you all drop here in print. Like the RCBS Gold Medal X dies, game changers for me. I really really need to powder coat. My only excuses are it is non traditional and I am pretty happy with my results as of now. If we really want to improve reloading we need to come up with a cheap substitute for primers!
Bret, to the best of my knowledge Felix had some kind of involvement in the warehouse project. To what extent I do not know. He is the one who put me onto this, and I've been wandering around in wonderland ever since. I got to shoot his bench gun one time - holy shamoly!
My caveat to this is that if all of the other things are not right case prep will not fix the stuff that is 'broke'. And for some types of shooting this level of attention to detail is not necessary, i.e., rat killing at the dump. But everything learned in search of accuracy can be an acquired, transferable skill. It just makes things 'mo betta'. Just my take on the whole thing.
My caveat to this is that if all of the other things are not right case prep will not fix the stuff that is 'broke'. And for some types of shooting this level of attention to detail is not necessary, i.e., rat killing at the dump. But everything learned in search of accuracy can be an acquired, transferable skill. It just makes things 'mo betta'. Just my take on the whole thing.
Cadillac Jeff
Well-Known Member
Maybe I can help here.....
Sundog = Corky
Fiver, was just sayin Hi to him, after you asked, Corky ?
Ian said, Sundog as in Corky is Sundog
Oh & NY Bret said Hi to Corky too
sometime's I have to think like we are all sitin arond a wood stove shootin the bull & all talkin at the same time ----- hard to keep up sometimes !
Jeff
I need pie now !
Sundog = Corky
Fiver, was just sayin Hi to him, after you asked, Corky ?
Ian said, Sundog as in Corky is Sundog
Oh & NY Bret said Hi to Corky too
sometime's I have to think like we are all sitin arond a wood stove shootin the bull & all talkin at the same time ----- hard to keep up sometimes !
Jeff
I need pie now !
Read about them yrs ago, seems they had really good equipment and good shooters as well. Can't knock anything they did. They worked in 'lab' conditions, we don't. Shortly after I bought my first gun (dick's off the rack 300$ marlin 30/30) SIl saw it and drooled over getting a marlin 38mx, got a fancy one for 800$. Later we decided to have a shoot-off at 100, led sled on the bench. He shot factory Hornady, I had my FTX/LeverE reloads with some used brass I cleaned in the sink with Dawn. Hornady die set & RCBS powder dumper. Anyway, he stood along side the gun, thumb and first finger on the trigger - 3 shot touching cloverleaf. I sat, hand around the wrist and standard shooting procedure. I go 2 almost touching, third about 1/4" off. He won. IMHO its as much about REPEATABLE recoil as anything for us 'normal' shooters. My flinch is from the noise, not the recoil per se. And it is BAD. As others have said, consistent neck tension, proper loading, proper component choice plus a decent gun.
IIRC Felix was a prof in AR. Had a Felix lube. Mostly on an old shooting site that is pretty dormant now. Usually had the correct answer to questions.
Actually the 30/30 wasn't my first, bought a 380 Star for the wife after an armed home invasion back in early 70s. Shot one rnd to make sure it worked. Did have a 22 hi-standard in college but didn't shoot it much after I got the slide slice. Traded for a Gibson guitar. SIl got a 9 by SA and I went with him to bass pro looking for one. They only had a 40sw XDm that the counter guy said was a sure man stopper.
IIRC Felix was a prof in AR. Had a Felix lube. Mostly on an old shooting site that is pretty dormant now. Usually had the correct answer to questions.
Actually the 30/30 wasn't my first, bought a 380 Star for the wife after an armed home invasion back in early 70s. Shot one rnd to make sure it worked. Did have a 22 hi-standard in college but didn't shoot it much after I got the slide slice. Traded for a Gibson guitar. SIl got a 9 by SA and I went with him to bass pro looking for one. They only had a 40sw XDm that the counter guy said was a sure man stopper.
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