I believe I have a very special rifle
- Thread starter Snakeoil
- Start date
Intel6
Active Member
Great work on the Lee die, I also like the Lee collet sizing dies. I ran into that same thing many years ago when I started using one for loading .22 Hornets. I found that all of my American manufactured/chambered Hornets (Ruger #1/Contender/Springfield Armory) all had chambers with a neck that was shorter so the start of the shoulder was higher up on the case and the Lee die cut into that should when sizing. Then I found that the chambers of my German made Anschutz's were cut with a longer neck and would work with the die. I found it funny that the only cases that would work with the USA produced die came from foreign made guns.
I played around with the washer on the shell holder but realized that would not be practical for normal use. I went back to using a Hornady .22 cal neck size only die for the cases I couldn't use with the Lee die.
I played around with the washer on the shell holder but realized that would not be practical for normal use. I went back to using a Hornady .22 cal neck size only die for the cases I couldn't use with the Lee die.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Today was the standard silhouette match at Wilton. Shot my 03 and shot a 37. Wind was doing some very strange things that were difficult to read. Others struggled reading conditions as well. I'm happy with the 37. My partner also shot a 37. Suspect we tied for 1st. He got 10 turkeys and could have missed the rest of the targets and would have still been happy. And I think turkeys is the tie breaker. I only 8 so that would give him 1st.
When we finished, I took out the High Wall. I had loaded 4 cartridges for it, using the cases I crunched with the sizing die yesterday. Bore sighted it on the bench by peering down the bore and then setting the scope on the target. I got lucky. I'd cranked the scope settings to where I thought it would be reasonable. When I did the bore sighting, elevation was perfect and windage needed about 4 minutes left.
First shot was perfect on windage, but a bit low, cranked 6 minutes up and second shot was also perfect for windage but still low. Cranked it up another 2 minutes and hit the bowling pin I was using as a target with the next two shots.
I was very happy with the results. My comment about not needing an M-die was total BS. Those 4 case that had been thru the sizer were all too tight at the mouth to insert a bullet. I took a tapered punch and belled the cases by hand to accept the GC bullets. They were 37 grain bullets out of a friend gave to me out of his NOE mold, which I'm going to borrow. I picked the GC versus the PB he'd given me because the were already lubed. With no flare or M-die pocket, I had a nice lead flange on all 4 bullets at the case mouth. I decided to leave them like that. Did not seem to be a problem.
The 1st bullet I seated went in crooked. It was so bad that I could plainly see it. I set it aside. When I finished the other 3, I picked it up and straightened out the bullet in the case by hand, so it looked relatively straight. It was one of the 4 I shot. Kinda tells me that the barrel is not fussy and will still put the bullet where I point the rifle. The load was that 37 gr RNFPGC bullet over 4gr of Unique. I have not used Unique in 30 years. Had a pound in the cabinet. That stuff is like trying to run potato chips thru my RCBS Uniflow. I measured every charge and they varied by 3 grains. So, I kept adjusting and put exactly 4 gr in each case. I need to try 2400. It meters so much better thru the Uniflow. Every charge is perfect.
Forgot to order a sizing die when I bought the dies and hence screwed myself out of free shipping. Grrrrr.... Need to try the PB bullets before I decide on a mold. Might try breech-seating as well before I buy a mold.
Boy, a 3.5 lb trigger is like doing curls after you shoot 50 rounds with a Timney set to maybe 1.5 lbs. But it's not an issue. I have never done trigger work on a High Wall before. I think I need to visit that subject. I'll bet I can make some new springs and get that trigger down to something better than the 3.5 it is now. It's very crisp, so that is good. Just needs to be a tad lighter.
Overall, I'm really happy with the rifle. That's not bad for having no intention or desire to ever own a High Wall in .218 Bee.
When we finished, I took out the High Wall. I had loaded 4 cartridges for it, using the cases I crunched with the sizing die yesterday. Bore sighted it on the bench by peering down the bore and then setting the scope on the target. I got lucky. I'd cranked the scope settings to where I thought it would be reasonable. When I did the bore sighting, elevation was perfect and windage needed about 4 minutes left.
First shot was perfect on windage, but a bit low, cranked 6 minutes up and second shot was also perfect for windage but still low. Cranked it up another 2 minutes and hit the bowling pin I was using as a target with the next two shots.
I was very happy with the results. My comment about not needing an M-die was total BS. Those 4 case that had been thru the sizer were all too tight at the mouth to insert a bullet. I took a tapered punch and belled the cases by hand to accept the GC bullets. They were 37 grain bullets out of a friend gave to me out of his NOE mold, which I'm going to borrow. I picked the GC versus the PB he'd given me because the were already lubed. With no flare or M-die pocket, I had a nice lead flange on all 4 bullets at the case mouth. I decided to leave them like that. Did not seem to be a problem.
The 1st bullet I seated went in crooked. It was so bad that I could plainly see it. I set it aside. When I finished the other 3, I picked it up and straightened out the bullet in the case by hand, so it looked relatively straight. It was one of the 4 I shot. Kinda tells me that the barrel is not fussy and will still put the bullet where I point the rifle. The load was that 37 gr RNFPGC bullet over 4gr of Unique. I have not used Unique in 30 years. Had a pound in the cabinet. That stuff is like trying to run potato chips thru my RCBS Uniflow. I measured every charge and they varied by 3 grains. So, I kept adjusting and put exactly 4 gr in each case. I need to try 2400. It meters so much better thru the Uniflow. Every charge is perfect.
Forgot to order a sizing die when I bought the dies and hence screwed myself out of free shipping. Grrrrr.... Need to try the PB bullets before I decide on a mold. Might try breech-seating as well before I buy a mold.
Boy, a 3.5 lb trigger is like doing curls after you shoot 50 rounds with a Timney set to maybe 1.5 lbs. But it's not an issue. I have never done trigger work on a High Wall before. I think I need to visit that subject. I'll bet I can make some new springs and get that trigger down to something better than the 3.5 it is now. It's very crisp, so that is good. Just needs to be a tad lighter.
Overall, I'm really happy with the rifle. That's not bad for having no intention or desire to ever own a High Wall in .218 Bee.
Last edited:
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Well, gray hair bit me in the arse, again. The bullets that my friend gave to me that I thought were a mix of PB and GC bullets, turned out to be all GC upon closer inspection. Some had GC's on and some did not.
I want to work up a load for 2400. There is nothing in the Lyman CBH for 2400 with cast bullets. But, looking at other loads that have Unique listed with 2400, I was able to interpolate and come up with a load that just might work. I'll let you know. Only have 3 bullet left with GCs on them.
And I spoke to another High Wall enthusiast that is a serious BPCR shooter and builds rifles. He said to forget trying the 60 gr bullet in the 16 twist rifle. He said they will all enter the target on their side. He said if I can get them to shoot in that barrel, I'll be the first.
I want to work up a load for 2400. There is nothing in the Lyman CBH for 2400 with cast bullets. But, looking at other loads that have Unique listed with 2400, I was able to interpolate and come up with a load that just might work. I'll let you know. Only have 3 bullet left with GCs on them.
And I spoke to another High Wall enthusiast that is a serious BPCR shooter and builds rifles. He said to forget trying the 60 gr bullet in the 16 twist rifle. He said they will all enter the target on their side. He said if I can get them to shoot in that barrel, I'll be the first.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Don't you love it when everything goes as planned? Me too. Unfortnately, that was not the case today.
I loaded those three 37 gr bullets with 6gr of 2400 under them. My estimations based upon Unique numbers for other cartridges that also listed 2400 loads told me that they should be doing no more than 1600 fps and hopefully less.
I had a 100 yd scope setting for 4 gr of Unique behind the same bullet. My guess is the 1698 fps in the Lyman CBH is a bit off. I set a target up at 100 yds and was the only guy at the range. Set up my chrono and shot the 3 bullets. Was interested in group size, for what it is worth with only 3 bullets and muzzle velocity. Well, I never hit the target. Looks like I shot under it. It did make a small group in the dirt, but nothing I could measure. I was able to get muzzel velocities. They were 1553, 1448, and 1387 in that order. So, my load is in the right area. Just not very consistent. And I measured each of those separately on my Dillon digital scale. However, I had another brain fart while loading and at first loaded 4gr of 2400 so I had to pull the 3 bullets and reload the cases with 6gr. I should have resized the necks, but that would have pushed out the new primers and for 3 lousy rounds, it just was not worth it. So, differences in neck tension could have been the primary contributor to the large spread in velocity.
Guess I'm done until I can get my hands on a mold, a sizing die and some GCs or maybe a PB mold.
I loaded those three 37 gr bullets with 6gr of 2400 under them. My estimations based upon Unique numbers for other cartridges that also listed 2400 loads told me that they should be doing no more than 1600 fps and hopefully less.
I had a 100 yd scope setting for 4 gr of Unique behind the same bullet. My guess is the 1698 fps in the Lyman CBH is a bit off. I set a target up at 100 yds and was the only guy at the range. Set up my chrono and shot the 3 bullets. Was interested in group size, for what it is worth with only 3 bullets and muzzle velocity. Well, I never hit the target. Looks like I shot under it. It did make a small group in the dirt, but nothing I could measure. I was able to get muzzel velocities. They were 1553, 1448, and 1387 in that order. So, my load is in the right area. Just not very consistent. And I measured each of those separately on my Dillon digital scale. However, I had another brain fart while loading and at first loaded 4gr of 2400 so I had to pull the 3 bullets and reload the cases with 6gr. I should have resized the necks, but that would have pushed out the new primers and for 3 lousy rounds, it just was not worth it. So, differences in neck tension could have been the primary contributor to the large spread in velocity.
Guess I'm done until I can get my hands on a mold, a sizing die and some GCs or maybe a PB mold.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the offer. I'm sure I will find PB mold within Wilton. Charlie may even have one.
JW, my problem is I am a rank amateur when it comes to reloading from a knowledge POV. 99% of my 50+ years of reloading was using published loads behind commercially cast bullets or shot. My first foray into developing a load was with BP in my .45-70 Shiloh. I have always been a shooter. Reloading was a required task related to shooting. With the purchase of my 03 a few years ago, I started down the load development path with smokeless and cast.
So, I know that case size plays a role in how powders act/perform.
There are 2 smokeless powder factions at Wilton, the 2400 guys and the Unique guys. I am one of the 2400 guys for 2 reasons. It works very well in my 03, and it meters very accurately in my Uniflow. Like I said in a previous post, Unique meters like potato chips.
Cadillac Jeff
Well-Known Member
To stay consistent with unique l keep my uniflow full, but yes every now and then ya get a crunchy feel
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
As I look for a powder/load for the Bee, I am thinking that powder density might play a role. The case being more full for a given velocity might remove some variables. Another thought/question is what produces consistency, outside influences like neck tension and other case or bullet properties aside. Should I want a low density, fast burning like Select, Red Dot, Clay's, a medium density, medium burn rate like Universal, 7625, or Unique, or a higher density, slower burn rate like 2400 or 4227?
PB might have been a good choice if they still made it.
PB might have been a good choice if they still made it.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
There's lots of cast data for the Hornet out there. Case shapes are quite different, but it's a place to start. 2400 may be a bit more difficult to get to burn well than some other powders, but the bottleneck should help there if you use it. If you look through the 32/20 based cases data with 2400 you'll see stuff up around 10.0 gr is up in the high end area in all of them. Of course that's jacketed data for the 218 and 25/20. For the 218 I'd cut that by a third at least to start. I may have cast data from Lyman or others, I'll have to look. In fact, I'm sure I have some cast data- where is the question! I have a 2 foot stack of print outs from various people/sources!
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
I have kept all the loading guides that I've collected over the years. There were the small booklets that were always on the counters at LGS. Also picked up a few vintage guides that somebody brought to the club for anyone that wanted them. I think they were from a member to passed away. I'll have to dig thru those.
I'm slowly learning about the requirements a powder needs to perform well. I think your point, Brett, about the bottle neck playing a role makes sense. 2400 is for magnum pistols which means it burns a bit slower, but also needs a bit of resistance (aka) time to build the proper pressure. That's why I think it works well in my .30-06 with the 200 gr bullet. It might be that the small bullet in the Bee is not enough resistance for 2400 to burn consistently.
Read a great article last night that I found on the web about how powders burn and the advances that have been made in improving how they burn, especially with respect to consistency across broad temperature ranges. That would have been a huge concern if we were still shooting outdoors in the winter at Wilton. I remember shooting BPCR silhouettes, and it was so cold I had to look to make sure the cartridge was in my fingers because I could not feel it.
I'm slowly learning about the requirements a powder needs to perform well. I think your point, Brett, about the bottle neck playing a role makes sense. 2400 is for magnum pistols which means it burns a bit slower, but also needs a bit of resistance (aka) time to build the proper pressure. That's why I think it works well in my .30-06 with the 200 gr bullet. It might be that the small bullet in the Bee is not enough resistance for 2400 to burn consistently.
Read a great article last night that I found on the web about how powders burn and the advances that have been made in improving how they burn, especially with respect to consistency across broad temperature ranges. That would have been a huge concern if we were still shooting outdoors in the winter at Wilton. I remember shooting BPCR silhouettes, and it was so cold I had to look to make sure the cartridge was in my fingers because I could not feel it.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
I assume this is for jacketed bullets at max velocities and not for cast.
I wish Arsenal made that 47gr bullet in a 40gr. NOE makes a 39gr but it out of stock. Never answered your 2nd question. Yes, I slugged it and it is 0.224-0.2245. I ordered gas checks so I'll try my buddy's mold and if that work swell, I'll just cast up a bunch before I return the mold. Then I can take my time working up a good load.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Same issue comes up in the 32-20. That's where a certain amount of crimp comes into play. Worth considering.
Found 3 Lyman references easy enough. The other stuff will take time.
Attachments
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Thanks, Brett. Looking for reduced loads around 1450fps. That data confirmed my expectations.
Not a fan of crimping. Would rather emulate a crimp by having the bullet engage the rifling. With brass being scarce, prefer to work the brass as little as possible. However, the very short bullet does not give a lot of flexibility in cartridge OAL to allow the bullet to engrave. Those 4 round I fired on Sunday were engraving. Powder was 4gr Unique.
Might just try breach seating at some point.
Not a fan of crimping. Would rather emulate a crimp by having the bullet engage the rifling. With brass being scarce, prefer to work the brass as little as possible. However, the very short bullet does not give a lot of flexibility in cartridge OAL to allow the bullet to engrave. Those 4 round I fired on Sunday were engraving. Powder was 4gr Unique.
Might just try breach seating at some point.
Last edited:
Ian
Notorious member
You have a milling machine, don't you?