Loading die question

[JustJim]

I've managed to accumulate a few sets (ok, 9 sets) of loading dies for my 44 Special. All steel (no carbide). I'm trying to figure out how to determine which case sizing die to use--and given today's component shortage, I can't just load 100 rounds with each and test them for accuracy.

I've set aside 100 1x-fired cases to do some measurements with. I figure I'll size a couple in each die and mic them to make sure each die is sizing the cases concentrically. But how much case sizing is "enough"?

I'm thinking I'll run an M die into each case and seat a bullet, pull the bullet, then mic the bullet base to see if the case reduced the bullet diameter. Any other suggestions or ideas for determining which die to go with?

Thanks,
Jim

 

[Ben]

If you're shooting light loads with fast burning propellants, it takes only a very small amount of case neck tension and a light crimp.

Sometimes trying to burn slow burning powders requires more case neck tension to get a good burn.

Ben

 

[Jeff H]

Given the scarcity and cost of brass, I'd go with the die that gives the LEAST amount of sizing required to coincide with Ben's advice.

May mean you keep two dies.

 

[Ian]

Any of the nine are probably fine, they're slightly tapered andyou don't have to screw them all the way down until they bottom out on the shell holder. Size your bullets to fit the cylinder throats, screw down the die until it is sizing your brass so the mouths are .002-3" smaller than your bullets. Make sure ALL traces of crimp are removed before measuring inside the cases with calipers.

 

[Missionary]

AHHHH.... Load with Black Powder and throw all those sizers away. In my direction would be fine.

 

[358156 hp]

I'm making a slow motion switch over to "Cowboy" dies, since I primarily load cast. I will also keep steel sizing dies for those cases that might require such an approach. I just sized around 800 38 Spl cases with my 38/357 RCBS Cowboy die set, and they weren't sized down anywhere near as much as cases are using my Hornady sizing die. I haven't decided if I'll be going forward with 44 mag much longer, but one approach I used with an early S&W Mountain Gun was to size the cases using a LEE factory crimp die with the guts removed. This was necessary because that particular revolver had .433 throats, and I even ordered a mould for it that dropped around .434 to allow sizing if desired. There is also a very early LEE collet type crimp die still around here for that gun, along with it's custom .433 Star die. That was a bit too much fuss for one revolver, and it went to a new home less than a year of that nonsense. I had four DA 44 mags at that point, and only that one required special ammo to shoot well.

 

[fiver]

i wouldn't toss well you got 9 so maybe.
but 44 special brass comes in different thicknesses depending on the brand.
winchester is usually the thinnest BTW.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

You're talking about case SIZING dies and then you are talking about using an "M" die (expander).

You have a lot of variables in play. The thickness of the brass is one. The chamber (or chambers) you are firing those cartridges in is another. And there are more variables such as the bullet diameter, interior finish, is the bore concentric to the die body and how far down the casing the sizing die works the brass,

Ultimately the differences in the various sizing dies may not be that significant. In fact, the differences may be so small that they are not measurable in light of other variables such as case wall thickness.

If all of the dies size the casings enough to allow a sized casing to fully chamber in your gun(s), I would suggest selecting the die that sizes the casing the LEAST.

In the end, the differences may be so small that they don't matter, if so, pick the one you like .
Future customer service from the manufacturer may be a factor. RCBS and Redding might be better choices than a die from a company long out of business.

 

[Charles Graff]

I am in the same situation with the 38 Special and 45 Colt, i.e. multiple sets of steel dies. I use the die that sizes least. I use a micrometer to measure the base, mid-case and case mouth diameters. I then use a Starrett adjustable hole gage to measure the inside of the case mouth. I shoot no +P loads in either caliber.

 

[Ian]

I got tight .45 Colts and over max .45 Colts. My solution was buy the dual-ring carbide die from Redding and enlarge the top ring with diamond tooling until it only sized the "neck" part sufficiently to hold the .4525" bullets I use in all of them, that way I can use brass and ammo interchangeably amongst the fleet.

 

[Foo]

IMHO anyone that thinks they can shoot a pistol good enough to tell the difference between the sizing dies is a narcissist. Sell all the steel dies at the gun show and get a new set of carbide dies for your progressive. Then go practice shootin' until you run out of primers!!

 

[Brad]

Carbide for me. Too lazy for steel dies for handguns.

That said, steel has one huge advantage. It doesn’t oversize the case causing failures. My Marlin 45 Colt chamber is massive. Sizing in carbide then expanding to fit that chamber leads to cases lasting roughly 10-12 loadings. If the chamber was tighter and the sizer less aggressive the cases would likely go another 5-8 loadings.

I’m not talking neck splits like I see in 38 special. I’m talking cases split 2/3 the way from neck to the rim. I can tell instantly on ejection as these cases make a distinct ringing sound.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

I get a lot of cycles out of 38 Special casings, and that's with carbide sizer dies.
Same is true for the auto pistol casings, but the loss rate is a little higher despite my efforts to collect the spent casings.
I do have some steel dies for handgun cartridges, but I can't definitively say the case life is longer with those. I can say that if there is a difference in case life, it's not enough for me to care.

 

[CZ93X62]

T/C sizing dies--even by the same maker (RCBS)--are not created equally.

My T/C 32 revolver and ACP dies size a few tenths either side of .336", which works in all of the guns in these calibers. The 38/357 die is PERFECT--.379" on the nose. The 40/10mm sizer is about .0015-.002" smaller than ideal, but the cases don't "coke-bottle", so I live with it. I haven't looked closely at the 41 Mag die, because I haven't loaded those for over 10 years. 41s are unfailingly consistent with throats @ .410" or a few tenths larger, and my dies haven't produced Coke Bottle ammo, so all is likely well in that respect.

My 44 Spec/Mag, 45 ACP, and 45 Colt dies GROSSLY undersize my brass in those calibers. I bought steel dies in 44 S/M and 45 Colt, and the T/C 45 Colt die gets used on the 45 ACP cases. Case life in 44 Mag and 45 Colt has been noticeably improved, probably doubled.

 

[L Ross]

IMHO anyone that thinks they can shoot a pistol good enough to tell the difference between the sizing dies is a narcissist. Sell all the steel dies at the gun show and get a new set of carbide dies for your progressive. Then go practice shootin' until you run out of primers!!

^^^^^^ Excellent Foo! Especially the run out of primers part.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

Biggest place I have seen "need" to keep steel dies is 9mm. Surprising from me as Im not a 9mm fan. But I have and load it. Its a tapered case and with a carbide, its a ring that cannot size the way a steel die can and does. Many times the carbide works but when it dont...

Then the 357, 41,44 & 45 revolver cartridges have times where a steel die just works better. I keep steel dies for just some situations.

CW

 

[JustJim]

Thanks guys, some good points here. For this gun, I'm sticking with Starline brass, so case wall thickness should be fairly consistent. I'm trying for consistent bullet pull and minimum deformation/resizing of the bullet. I don't shoot "light" loads, so bullet pull can be a factor to watch: at 25 yards you don't notice it as much, but it shows up out around 100 yards, with differing points of impact opening up groups.

I'd like to minimize the working of the brass, while still having good results. I've not had good luck at this with carbide or TN sizing dies in the 44s. Worst offender was an early Hornady "New Dimension" die that gave me wasp-waisted cases that usually lasted 4 (fairly accurate) loadings before cracking started.

Missionary, the 44 is all your fault! When I was a kid I corresponded with Keith; when I couldn't find a 44 Special he suggested I get a 41 mag. I did, and I was happy. If you weren't running a giant vacuum that sucks up all the 41 mags so I could find one again, I wouldn't have gotten a 44 Special! By the time you're heading stateside again I should have something worked out with these dies--drop me a line and I'll send a couple sets your way.

 

[Rick]

IMHO anyone that thinks they can shoot a pistol good enough to tell the difference between the sizing dies is a narcissist.

A narcissist? . . . Or a long-range competitor.

 

[JustJim]

A narcissist? . . . Or a long-range competitor.

Exactly! When your 100 yard groups with the 45 acp double in size, you know you've worn out another carbide die. . . .

 

[Rick]

Exactly! When your 100 yard groups with the 45 acp double in size, you know you've worn out another carbide die. . . .

Nothing like those that have no comprehension. I guess the old saying . . . . "Ignorance is bliss" does have merit.