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- Thread starter JustJim
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Yep Charles, same as this post.
Charles Graff
Moderator Emeritus
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I apologize if my post was misunderstood. Back in the early '90s, that was how I found out I'd worn out my first carbide die. About 10 years later it happened again. Both dies lasted about 200,000 rounds. I suspected the jewelers rouge in my tumbling media was a factor in the wear, so I stopped using it.
RBHarter
West Central AR
Having had more than one arm that neck sizing made a huge difference in groups I will politely disagree with with Foo . In all but the 45 Colts and nickle 38/357 the carbide dies are fine . The nickle would probably only last 2-3 more cycles anyway . The 45 Colts I had 4 sets of carb dies and taking a .484 fired case down to .469 and back up to .475 to get a bullet in it and blown out to .484 again this is about brass life . In the RBH when they were full length coke bottled I struggled with 3-4" groups at 25 yd . Now whether that was in my head after I realized that there was visible movement of the fresh loads in the chambers or if it was actually because the cases were moving in the chambers we'll never know . But when I changed to neck sizing I was rewarded with groups of about 1" per 10 yd for 6 shots and when shooting a single chamber I often had 10 under 4" at 50 yd . I couldn't shoot like that now for money but I did then .
I don't even want to talk about the 92 with the .496 that tapers to .482 with a .450 groove , that's getting close to .1 every cycle .
Enough chamber slop to be the difference between bore and groove from sized to fired can't possibly do anything positive for accuracy .
Of course I'm dealing with 5.5-7.5" field guns I intended to take big game with not the 2.5" 40 or 380 pocket gun .
I don't even want to talk about the 92 with the .496 that tapers to .482 with a .450 groove , that's getting close to .1 every cycle .
Enough chamber slop to be the difference between bore and groove from sized to fired can't possibly do anything positive for accuracy .
Of course I'm dealing with 5.5-7.5" field guns I intended to take big game with not the 2.5" 40 or 380 pocket gun .
Kevin Stenberg
Well-Known Member
On a completely different subject. Check all of the dies for any kind of scratching on the cases. through them out first.
Charles Graff
Moderator Emeritus
I would not throw out a die that leaves scratches on the cases. I would remove the cause of the scratches.
I polish the interior of my dies first thing when I acquire them. I chuck the die in the lathe and then place an oversized bore mop in the tailstock. I wrap the bore mop with strips of a shop paper towel and then coat the paper with Mothers Mag metal polish. Turn the lathe on and feed the now tight paper wrapped bore mop into the die. Clean the die with alcohol and see how it gleams. There will be no scratched on the cases and the sizing with be noticeably easier. I make certain my cases are CLEAN before sizing. Grit on cases is how the grit gets carried into the dies. I have never had to repolish a die.
You do not need to have a lathe, a drill press or even a hand drill will do the same thing.
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Charles Graff
Moderator Emeritus
We are very mindful of how our rifles cases fit the chamber and throat. We want a good fit, so the bullets will get a straight starting run at the rifling. We do all we can to be certain our rifle bolt face, chamber and ammo is straight as possible. When install a custom barrel, we use a gunsmith/machinist who can cut the chamber straight with the bore. Ammo which is straight and uniform will provide the best accuracy. Yet nobody calls us a narcissist for doing so.
Taking the same level of care with our revolver ammo is also what many of us do. Hence the use of steel sizing dies. Does this produce more accurate revolver ammo? Yes, it does. Does it make a difference? It does to me. I want to know that the bullet that landed outside the group was me and not the revolver or the ammo.
I started my shooting life in the mid-50's, first with competition small bore and then into four position centerfire competition. My handgun shooting teeth were cut in Bullseye shooting. The quality of my ammo has always been a very high concern for me. I have never been a plinker, cowboy shooter, steel shooter or technical shooter. Therefore "blasting ammo" or "good enough" ammo has never had a place in my shooting. All of my ammo is X-Ring capable or it is not good enough for me.
I do not judge others for the quality of their ammo, for each has different standards. The above are my standards and may not apply to anybody else on this planet. Back in the day, it would not have been necessary to explain this, but this is another day.
Taking the same level of care with our revolver ammo is also what many of us do. Hence the use of steel sizing dies. Does this produce more accurate revolver ammo? Yes, it does. Does it make a difference? It does to me. I want to know that the bullet that landed outside the group was me and not the revolver or the ammo.
I started my shooting life in the mid-50's, first with competition small bore and then into four position centerfire competition. My handgun shooting teeth were cut in Bullseye shooting. The quality of my ammo has always been a very high concern for me. I have never been a plinker, cowboy shooter, steel shooter or technical shooter. Therefore "blasting ammo" or "good enough" ammo has never had a place in my shooting. All of my ammo is X-Ring capable or it is not good enough for me.
I do not judge others for the quality of their ammo, for each has different standards. The above are my standards and may not apply to anybody else on this planet. Back in the day, it would not have been necessary to explain this, but this is another day.
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Charles Graff
Moderator Emeritus
Here is why I use steel sizing dies for revolvers.
1. A carbide die will over size a case and make it a loose fit in the charge hole. Gravity being what it is the round will settle to the bottom of the charge hole and thereby be a smidge off center when the bullet hits the charge hole throat.
2. Neck sizing a revolver will make for a tight fit to the charge hole, but only in that particular charge hole and cylinder. What about the follow like me that has about a dozen 38 Special revolvers and a half dozen in 45 Colt? This is where the steel sizing dies shine. They will produce sized cases that will fit in any charge hole of any revolver. But they are not all born equal. Over the years RCBS steel dies have changed with the oldest usually being the best in producing the largest sized cases that will still fit any cylinder. The Lyman FL sizing dies for the Tru-Line Jr, press will also give good results as will the old Ideal Lyman Shell Resizer.
3. This case to charge hole fit is my primary reason for using steel sizing dies. The extra life of the case is just icing on the cake. In these days, with brass becoming much more expensive, this is not a trivial concern.
Best fit of the case to the charge hole is just one part of the equation. The fit of the bullet to the charge hole throat and barrel groove diameter, uniform case length, bullet design and alloy plus the lubricant also are important. What kind of crimp and how much crimp also are important factors. If a fellow want X-Ring capable ammo, this is the path to follow.
1. A carbide die will over size a case and make it a loose fit in the charge hole. Gravity being what it is the round will settle to the bottom of the charge hole and thereby be a smidge off center when the bullet hits the charge hole throat.
2. Neck sizing a revolver will make for a tight fit to the charge hole, but only in that particular charge hole and cylinder. What about the follow like me that has about a dozen 38 Special revolvers and a half dozen in 45 Colt? This is where the steel sizing dies shine. They will produce sized cases that will fit in any charge hole of any revolver. But they are not all born equal. Over the years RCBS steel dies have changed with the oldest usually being the best in producing the largest sized cases that will still fit any cylinder. The Lyman FL sizing dies for the Tru-Line Jr, press will also give good results as will the old Ideal Lyman Shell Resizer.
3. This case to charge hole fit is my primary reason for using steel sizing dies. The extra life of the case is just icing on the cake. In these days, with brass becoming much more expensive, this is not a trivial concern.
Best fit of the case to the charge hole is just one part of the equation. The fit of the bullet to the charge hole throat and barrel groove diameter, uniform case length, bullet design and alloy plus the lubricant also are important. What kind of crimp and how much crimp also are important factors. If a fellow want X-Ring capable ammo, this is the path to follow.
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As much as I absolutely detest lubricating and cleaning cases of lube, I just keep thinking I need to locate a steel sizing die.
I don't know if it could be done, or would be worth paying what it costs to do, but a carbide sizing die "widening" service would be nice. I currently still use two carbide sizing dies and both size brass too much, even though they are not the worst I've had.
I don't know if it could be done, or would be worth paying what it costs to do, but a carbide sizing die "widening" service would be nice. I currently still use two carbide sizing dies and both size brass too much, even though they are not the worst I've had.
OK, I apologize if it offended you. Perhaps it was a little strong if taken literally. But I did say IMHO and if read closely it wasn't aimed at or denigrated any specific person. It was a general statement that I think most that read it understood. So again I apologize if it offended anyone, it wasn't meant to. Have a nice day!
Rockydoc
Well-Known Member
Charles, is that polishing routine just for steel dies or does that include carbide dies?
fiver
Well-Known Member
Doc the carbide dies will pick up grit and make some gouges too.
at the minimum give them a very good cleaning when you get them.
they are some super hard and opening one or polishing it would take some effort and time.
i simply bought LEE carbide dies they seem sloppy enough to make straight cases even with over size bullets inserted.
then again a coke can is still a 25yd challenge to me in most hand guns.
there is a couple that i take the time to load and care for, the rest just get flung around in a circle and thrown in a 5 gallon bucket.
i got rifles and shotguns to shoot, handguns are mostly an out the truck window with the heater on during the winter proposition.
at the minimum give them a very good cleaning when you get them.
they are some super hard and opening one or polishing it would take some effort and time.
i simply bought LEE carbide dies they seem sloppy enough to make straight cases even with over size bullets inserted.
then again a coke can is still a 25yd challenge to me in most hand guns.
there is a couple that i take the time to load and care for, the rest just get flung around in a circle and thrown in a 5 gallon bucket.
i got rifles and shotguns to shoot, handguns are mostly an out the truck window with the heater on during the winter proposition.
Charles Graff
Moderator Emeritus
I do not own a carbide die anymore, so I have never polished one.
Charles Graff
Moderator Emeritus
Not being a mind reader, I must assume you say what you mean and mean what you say. That said....apology accepted. Peace be with you.
Yes, the Redding dual ring carbide die is an attempt to solve the obvious downside of the one ring carbide die. I feel certain they must work. My only problem with them and the RCBS Cowboy dies is the cost. Vintage steel dies cost much, much less and I have the heart of a cheapskate.
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Rockydoc
Well-Known Member
I take that to mean that you run loaded rounds through the Lee carbide sizing die as the last step in reloading pistol cartridges. Is that correct? Re-contouring them.
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Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
I too am a cheapskate, but I'm also lazy.
So, I balance the benefits of carbide sizing dies against the drawbacks of carbide sizing dies.
Yes, the carbide dies cost more, but it is a one-time expense. After that initial cost, the elimination of the need to lube casings outweighs the disadvantages in my eyes. YMMV
Yes, carbide dies are prone to size too much and may work the brass a bit more than needed. I'm fully aware of that disadvantage. However, For Me, I can live with it when dealing with handgun ammunition.
Rifle dies, that's a whole different ball of wax.
Some of my dies are seldom used and some get more work, so there are personal factors at play.
Charles Graff
Moderator Emeritus
Years ago, when I started reloading, RCBS dies came in a lime green cardboard box on the end of which was written "Reloading Is Fun". I swallowed that hook, line and sinker and never considered reloading to be anything related to work. When it comes to real work, I am as lazy as the next sloth.