Lyman 429421

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I need to get more cast up to test. The SRH and Marlin will be the best test beds, they are capable of shooting well enough to tell a difference, if any.

And yes, I agree on Keith. His ideas where great but they are also very old ideas. I actually prefer the LBT style bullets myself.
 

James W. Miner

Active Member
My original 429421 shot very well. I don't believe in the square or round GG in any case. I think more GG's are better then one large one. The Keith has room for two. Many boolits have room for three.
Boolits are strange and since I started making my own molds I learned a lot.
My base bands on the .475 and .500 JRH boolits are only .080" long with 3 GG's.
Here is my .475 and the .500 is close. .475 boolit.jpg JRH boolit.jpg .500 boolit and then a 50 yard group with it. th_50yardswiththe500JRHBFR.jpg Just 2 GG's but I never got one big GG to shoot as good. Yes I was concerned about drive bands until I shot the boolits. I still don't know why a PB can shoot so well with max loads. Recovered boolits show no distortion at all. I was hooked on reading what was best but cut my cherries by eye and had no idea what i had.
If you can see a difference with a flat bottom GG or a round one, I will take my hat off to you.
I would prefer a 429421 with 2 GG's to see what it does. I never cut a Keith mold because I don't like the front band entry to the cone. I prefer the ogive to steer like my big 330 gr in the .44 at 200 yards. The ogive is the same angle as my forcing coneMy 330 gr .44 at 200. .jpg Then off hand at 100. Off hand at 100.jpg 3/4" for three shots. I can't do this at 25 with a Keith.
 

James W. Miner

Active Member
I have never drawn a boolit on paper and am NOT a machinist at all. I have a cheap, Smithy, mill, drill, turn and am self taught. I can not duplicate a drawing so I don't try. Why things work like they do baffles me. Cast is a crazy world but not a single mold made by anyone has shot like my silly things.
Rifle the same. here is a remlin 30-30 with my boolit. 30-30 boolit and targets.jpg
100 yards my friends.
 
9

9.3X62AL

Guest
The targets tell the tale. That group from a LEVERGUN is outstanding.

John Browning had the equivalent of an 8th grade education, and modeled his designs in wood carvings. He did just fine without 15 Ph.Ds to stand on.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Finally got around to loading some for a test run. All bullets were cast at same time from same alloy. Lubed same time and sized the same. Ran all 100 rounds Ina single session on the 550.
image.jpeg image.jpeg

I fired 25 with one load, then 25 with the other. Took a short break then 25 with first load and 25 with second load.

Top target is the full diameter front band. Bottom target is the factory front band and just the base band opened up.

Load was 6.9 gr Unique in mixed brass with a Tula LPP. All sized .432 and lubed with Ian's SL 68 lube. They were fired in the 624 I bought from Rick. Range was 25 yards, fired offhand. Let me say I am not the best pistol shooter in the world.

Hard to say for certain but I do think the full diameter front band bullet grouped a bit tighter. That target seems to have a better core grouping than the smaller front band target.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
I would think your methodology was sound up until you shot from standing.
If the intent is to test the shooter, standing is a great. If the intent is to test ammo
and gun, rested shooting position is needed since the likely difference in the two
loads is probably smaller than the normal human error from standing.

Bill
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
The indoor range has no way to shoot sitting. That will be done once the weather improves.
 

Maven

Well-Known Member
Bill's got a point, Brad. A front and/or rear rest is imperative for a more definitive retest.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I agree entirely. A rerun will happen once I can get to the outdoor range. Maybe Ina couple weeks of the weather reports are right.
 

smokeywolf

Well-Known Member
As one who is hypoglycemic, there is one thing I can tell you. Some time back, when I started shaving with a straight razor, I learned not to shave in the morning immediately after getting out of bed. My blood sugar is off and my hands shake a lot more than a couple of hours after a meal. Usually have dinner a little early, with a light supper about 2 hours before bed, then shower & shave.

I always try to eat a good dose of carbohydrates about an hour before leaving for the range. My off-hand shooting is then almost as good as my teenage boys.
 

Josh

Well-Known Member
I have never drawn a boolit on paper and am NOT a machinist at all. I have a cheap, Smithy, mill, drill, turn and am self taught. I can not duplicate a drawing so I don't try. Why things work like they do baffles me. Cast is a crazy world but not a single mold made by anyone has shot like my silly things.
Rifle the same. here is a remlin 30-30 with my boolit. View attachment 1254
100 yards my friends.
Jim? Nice to see you, haven't seen any of you since Jays forum.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
OK, I was wondering if there wasn't more to this.

Good plan. It is impressive to see a LOT in one hole on the left target. That does make me
think that you are correct that the left is a bit better.

Of course, my bias is that the front band being bigger "has to" be better....... unless Mr.
Target tells us differently.

Bill
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Mr Miner - those are impressive targets. Clearly that "self teaching" stuff is working for
you!

Bill
 

Missionary

Well-Known Member
Good morning
Everyone has a talent or more. There are naturals in all facets of life. The trick is finding that nitch where your capacities can flourish and what is your God given capabilities can be well used. That is where family, a real church and caring neighbors should be involved. Teachers used to be a part of the process.
Yep it is hard to beat "the natural" where experience and perserverance have dominated. Those people are just flat fun to be around.
Mike in Peru
 
9

9.3X62AL

Guest
I'm fairly well-versed on the "Rules Of Thumb" concerning what is supposed to work when we try out new bullets or other variables in the ballistic equation. The "bottom line" remains what is shown downrange, though.

The Rules seem a little better at pointing out what DOESN'T work, than at being reliable predictors of good outcomes. Since revolvers and their relationship to Keith SWCs are the germane subject here, I'll add in a bit of personal observation that has largely held true for me since I got rabid about wheelguns and bottom-feeders 40-odd years ago, and about the fodder that gleans the best accuracy.......er, doesn't scatter so randomly downrange.

Here goes--in a revolver, any bullet that is not well-engraved into the forcing cone at the time the bullet base clears the cylinder throat is a lot more likely to Go Poetic downrange than is a longer bullet that achieves that task. After owning or using dozens of 38 Special and 357 Magnum revolvers and likely firing close to 100,000 rounds of both calibers, it has been my experience that no 110 or 125 grain bullet shoots nearly as well as do the 140-200 grain bullets--jacketed or cast. My belief is that the shorter/lighter bullets--mostly jacketed, and mostly some form of RNFP or TC--aren't well-engraved or are differentially engraved by virtue of their bases being unsupported by cylinder throat guidance and stability as the ogive/taper/shoulder takes the rifling.

Germane to J. Miner's texts and the question of full-caliber vs. rebated-diameter front drive bands.......I offer the Lyman #358477. My edition of this mould has a rebated front drive band, and despite the caveats of Mr. Keith and others that such follies threaten to collapse Western Civilization and prompt The End Times, #358477 has shot VERY WELL for many people for many years. #358477 still has two nice fat full-caliber drive bands behind its nose and rebated front band, and its middle band is of a length and placement to have fully engraved into the rifling before its base clears the throat/cylinder face. In essence, the front drive band becomes superfluous as a guidance factor IF the center drive band does its job in the forcing cone. In short, a full-caliber front drive band may or may not make an accuracy difference of its own accord.
 

Glen

Moderator
Staff member
Al -- Very interesting comments. Concerning your 358477 mould, do you have any idea when it was made? I have two 4-cavity versions of that mould from the late 50s and both drop bullets with full diameter front driving bands. Mine shoot just as well as you describe, but do so without the rebated front band of your mould. We both know that Lyman monkeyed with that mould design (among others) many times over the years, and some of their moves were not so good....

Another comment concerning a rebated front driving band -- I have a 200 grain SAECO .357 TC mould that has a rebated front driving band (~.352") that shoots very well in my Ruger .357 Maximum. Rick (one of our esteemed moderators) has the 180 grain version of this mould and he reports poor results with it. I believe that this is another case of what you describe for the 125 grain bullets above -- the longer 200 grain bullet is still supported by the cylinder when the forward portion of the bullet is being engraved (and my Ruger does have tight throats), whereas the shorter 180 grain bullet is not as well supported.

One last comment -- I have always appreciated your ability to turn a phrase -- "going poetic downrange" is beautiful!
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Glen, back about 04 you sent me some of those 200's. Your post tweaked my curiosity so I looked up the load data. Notes didn't mention leading but the chrono results are . . .

9 inch FA revolver
16.0 gr H-110
CCI 550
Virgin WW brass
LBT Blue lube

10 shot chrono test
ES 18
AV 1533
SD 5

.
 
9

9.3X62AL

Guest
Glen--

I bought the #358477 in mid-1981 from a supplier that sold A LOT of Lyman products at wholesale and retail--Berman & Sons in San Bernardino. I imagine the mould wasn't on the shelf for a long time, so the mould likely was made in 1980-81 timeframe.

Thank you for the kind words, sir.