Most versatile gun?

[jordanka16]

So I've been into shotguns lately and was looking for something else to mess around with and I ran across the Henry model X in .410 https://www.henryusa.com/shotgun/lever-action-x-model-410-shotgun/

I've been getting into rifled shotguns lately and have read about paradox guns, which if you don't know are smoothbore guns with a short rifled section in the muzzle so they shoot shot and full bore projectiles well.

You can get a rifled choke for them turning it into a paradox gun essentially.

For me in western Oregon where a 100 yard shot is about max that would be perfect for most game. Certainly not ideal for a lot but doable, especially in a survival situation.

Anyone have any thoughts? Or how well those rifled chokes work? I would be casting full bore slugs for it, not relying on off the shelf undersize slugs.

 

[david s]

A 410 slug is 86 grains if I remember correctly. A 410 slug isn't a 41 Magnum or even a 41 Special. It would depend on how you define "most game".

 

[jordanka16]

A 410 slug is 86 grains if I remember correctly. A 410 slug isn't a 41 Magnum or even a 41 Special. It would depend on how you define "most game".

I would cast much heavier slugs than that, I was thinking 150-200 grains. With slow powder and heavy slugs a lot can be done at shotgun pressures. And those Henry's are built on the .45-70 frames anyway so I'm sure they're more than capable of handling any .410 load.

I've read that people use .444 marlin cases to load them, which appeals to me because I could use my existing reloading equipment to load shells, and not have to buy a press for .410. I have some cases on the way to try it out in my mossberg pump .410.

 

[Bret4207]

IMO you have a short range small game gun, maybe a very, very short range emergency deer gun. Beyond that I'd have to see some legitimate data from a knowledgeable source with the 150-200 gr stuff you're talking about.

Do they still make the shot capsules for the 44 and 45 cals? Seems like with a 45-70 that would be easier than trying to turn a 410 into a 41 Mag.

 

[Jeff H]

Not necessarily just to be the contrarian, but I've always though that the semi-"rare" TC, 56 cal smooth-bore flintlock would do that trick.

You effectively have a 28 gauge shotgun, independent from PRIMERS, and a significantly-wide round-ball gun, independent from primers, and you could hunt small game with ball or shot and big(ger) game (closer) with ball. It's PERFECT! We don't need any other guns!

While a .410" slug might not carry a lot of authority, a 56 caliber ball certainly does - out just past 100 yards in a RIFLED gun, but the smooth bore may choke a bit on that. It would also effectively be a cylinder-bore if using shot, so there are lots of heavy compromises trying to roll it all into one. SHOT out of a RIFLED barrel makes a DONUT that shoots around the target, and the greater the range, the more ineffectual the pattern.

This is one that wouldn't be very good at EITHER and the compromise isn't worth it - you're hobbled in either situation. A regular shotgun can be a really good shotgun and passably good with slugs. Anything with rifling is going to make shot useless.

So, I can't support MY idea any better than I can YOUR (@jordanka16 ) idea without buying the Renegade and trying it. Honestly, I think either gun would be a genuine HOOT and somewhat effective at what you wish to achieve.

I think the idea is absolutely worthy of the mental exercise, but I also think that the "exercise" is the only positive outcome. If a fella wants a lever-action 410, and wants to experiment, said fella should just DO that and not try to make it make sense. SOME viable and valuable information will come of it and there will be some element of usefulness, but enough to justify or rationalize the experiment.

Experiment for the sake of experimentation and don't listen to people like me. If it sounds fun, but you don't foresee a meaningful payoff that justifies the experiment, then just do it for the sake of the fun of it. If others think it's stupid, do it anyway, if that's what you want to do. Any one of us who HAVEN'T done it, haven't done it for a reason. Maybe everyone else's hypotheses are wrong?

You could do anything needs doing with a 22 LR;

You could do anything needs doing with a 12 gauge pump;

You could do anything needs doing with a 30-06;

You could do anything needs doing with a 357 Mag;

You could do anything needs doing with a stick and a rock.......

I'd be interested in someone reporting how the 410 lever-action fares at survival/subsistence-hunting/whatever else from someone who's DONE it. Yes, I'm trying to get YOU to spend the time and the money to assess the viability of the gun.

I DO appreciate that you can omit the qualifier of fending off hordes of zombies. I think like you think in that way - I think - a ONE subsistence gun to "get you through." There have been a lot of them - 32-20, 44-40 and 30-30 "homestead guns," grandad's 22 or Model 12, etc. I'm genuinely curious about what you (@jordanka16 ) are curious about. It's an intriguing idea.

Never mind what the rest of us think - get one and you KNOW you have a viable 410 shotgun. We all KNOW the 420 shotgun can get small game IF we're on OUR game, but what will it do with .410" BULLETS at 50 or a hundred yards? Can you even HIT something at those distances? OOH! Round-ball small game loads! But then, why not just use a shotshello for small game?

@jordanka16 , you just opened a can of worms!

I think it's a neat idea and SOMEONE (@jordanka16 ) needs to DO this.

 

[Jeff H]

IMO you have a short range small game gun, maybe a very, very short range emergency deer gun. Beyond that I'd have to see some legitimate data from a knowledgeable source with the 150-200 gr stuff you're talking about.

Do they still make the shot capsules for the 44 and 45 cals? Seems like with a 45-70 that would be easier than trying to turn a 410 into a 41 Mag.

Pretty sure they DO make the shot capsules. I have several left I loaded thirty years ago so I haven't needed more.

BUT, I have come across 444 Marlin cases loaded as shot-shells in what the auctioneers cull prior to an auction. I don't know if they were used in a 420 shotgun or in a 444 Marlin.

Rifling plays hell with shot charges whether they are in a capsule or not thought.

 

[Ian]

A 12-gauge pump shotgun with a light modified choke is probably THE most versatile and practical firearm on the planet. Ammunition of all kinds is literally everywhere.

I have a Model 42 fitted for screw-in chokes and a full-choke Model 37. Haven't shot either one in many years.

 

[RBHarter]

Having lots of time in with 45 Colts , lots of time in exploring 410 but not much shooting , 45 Raptor/45-70 and by happenstance 45 Mongo , here's what I know . 2/3 of the at hand 410s have a .386 muzzle . The other is a 45/410 single shot pistol which defies most reasonable explanations for it's general behavior .

So for a straight 410 I'd be looking more for a tight wad with a 380 RB in my use . It's only about 85 gr even in pure . So now you/I have 2 ways to go load the highest velocity we can keep on a 75 yd paper plate , which could be pretty fast even with a 15-18 kpsi limit or go with 1/2 data and 3 ball loadings .

If we're talking about using a 44/45 cal base then I'd go with a more exotic solution. I did a bunch calculations and came up a screw in/on choke which would need to be about 3" long ala' turkey choke with a minimum dia of about .460-.465 with a choke start as reasonably short to the crown or muzzle as possible .
A 32 ga choke is pretty close , 28 ga will have a significant amount of clearance but a long extended choke might make up the difference .
A choke would need to be a a Wad-lock straight rifled type . This would allow the wad and shot charge to get most of the spin stopped and get it pulled down to a loose full choke without a significant risk of a bullet strike . A straight Metford , Decagon or something like that would work also if a guy were making their own .

As to the Mongo . It is a full length case sort of created for the Walker and Dragoon type C&B CF conversion cylinders . It is variations of the 2-2.5 brass 410 loaded with a 255 gr bullet to mimic top stepping 45 Colts with the intention of not beating up the bullet in the long throat and the under dia working out in the "44" cal barrels . I used the method for the 45/410 when I loaded a 45 cal maxi ball for it . The grooves were too narrow to engage anything except hard jackets .

I've dabbled with the 45 cal rifle and functionally 410ish shotgun . Where we hunted deer we encountered chucker , sage hen , and roughed/blue grouse often enough in season to make them a viable alternate primary game . So it made a lot of sense ........at least to me .

 

[jordanka16]

Thanks for all the info guys, I love the discussion.

This is only an idea at this point, i have a mossberg and a side by side .410 to mess around with for now. There's load data for .410 shells with 300+ grain payloads so a 200 grain solid bullet is at least technically possible.

I have a couple .45-70s and like @Jeff H says the rifling makes them unusable for shot at any useful distance.

I thought I found a rifled choke for a .410 the other day, but looking again I can't find it now. Without that it wouldn't be as effective with slugs which is the whole point.

@Jeff H I love to experiment, and this idea popped into my head the other day after I've been reading extensively about shotgun slugs, I don't know if I'll get to the point of buying a whole new gun just for it, but it's certainly worth an experiment or two. I think my side by side has cylinder chokes so I could shoot full bore slugs through it.

 

[Bret4207]

The shotshells that used to be made for the T/C Contenders DID work out of a 44 Mag rifle within 20 yards or so. I know that first hand and ate what it killed. Speer IIRC made those shotshells and they were around some time back.

If you really want versatile then hunt up a Savage over under in 30-30 x 12 or 20 ga. End of story.

 

[Jeff H]

The shotshells that used to be made for the T/C Contenders DID work out of a 44 Mag rifle within 20 yards or so. I know that first hand and ate what it killed. Speer IIRC made those shotshells and they were around some time back.

I forgot about those. Long gone, now, I think, but they went to some effort to make them work. The ones CCI sells for handloading the 38/357 and 44s aren't terrible at ten feet or so, but nothing compared to the ones for the TCs. I think the TCs had a much larger payload too.

If you really want versatile then hunt up a Savage over under in 30-30 x 12 or 20 ga. End of story.

Good point.

I had a Savage 24V, 30/30 over 20 gauge, as a kid. The 30/30 was accurate and I loaded and shot that a lot. As a shotgun, it was a bit clumsy in my hands, but would "do in a pinch." "End of story," I think, sums this application/solution up rather well. I wouldn't pick one of these myself unless it was a last resort, but then that's sort of the gist of the original query.

I can't argue against @Ian 's assertions on the 12 gauge either, plus, if it were a pump/auto or "repeater of some sort, then we could throw in the personal defense requirement and be able to check that box too.

This kind of circles back to the timeless "one gun" concept, which I don't believe ever gets old, because it's a valid question and people HAVE done it. It comes down to how many and which compromises one can/will make given the individual's situation. In Ohio, I COULD make either work, but hypothetically would defer the the 24V (which I very much disliked as a kid), because we have lots of varmints, and the Sierra 100 grain HP is dynamite on wood chucks, and I'm sure it would be equally devastating on coyote. I currently have a 30/30 Contender Carbine shooting lead so well that it isn't funny, so no 22 LR needed. I PREFER to carry a shotgun OR a rifle, not both at the same time.

The Savage combo guns were/are like a Swiss Army Knife - I need a small blade a lot, but carry scissors, screw-driver, file, tweezers along all the time even though I only need them occasionally. My preference is to carry my Queen D2 Barlow. It CUTS so much better than the SAK, but then I don't have the other stuff along. Compromises.

Always fun to sort through all the ideas and always something to learn from others' perspectives on this topic - HERE. Other places, it tends to get unrealistic and people won't try to stand where someone else stands to see if they can see what the other guy is seeing.

 

[Winelover]

Nothing more versatile than a 12 gauge with modified barrel or better yet, screw in choke tubes. Can take birds, small game all the way up to large dangerous game. Most effective defense firearm, when portability isn't an issue.

 

[Jeff H]

...............................So it made a lot of sense ........at least to me .

Not only made sense TO you, but FOR you - given your situation and the game available and desirable to you.

 

[david s]

jordanka16, I don't know what kind of velocity from a 410 with a 300 grain load is possible but if it's around 1000 fps your beginning to get into the 100 yard all around gun area. Some mention of the Savage 24's has been made. Depending on how deep your pockets go some of the German Drillings or Vierling's would make a lot of sense. Just about any combination of shotgun with rifle barrels is available. I have a Remington 870 that is used for river bottom deer hunting. This shotgun has an extended Carlson rifled Rem choke. The choke works well with sabot slugs but is less impressive with Foster slugs. In my very limited testing anyway.

 

[todd]

i remember back when i was 12 or 13 yo there was guy that used his winchester m12 and foster slugs to hunt deer with.(i started out hunting with a savage pump 20 ga and i asked the guy what he hunted with).

 

[Jeff H]

i remember back when i was 12 or 13 yo there was guy that used his winchester m12 and foster slugs to hunt deer with.(i started out hunting with a savage pump 20 ga and i asked the guy what he hunted with).

That's all some people hunted with in many eastern states (like here, in Ohio) for many years. You won't be bustin' Mr. coyote at 400 yards, but if he's undermining your chicken run or a wood chuck is aerating your barn foundation, you can sit in the loft and wait, or sneak around a corner and surprise him. A lot more work than sitting on the back porch and watching out across the field, but - compromises. Which ones are each of us willing to make? Which ones make sense for us individually?

A shotgun offers the advantage of hitting a varmint on the run, and mitigates potential for nearby/neighboring homes and barns acquiring extra "roof vents." Not to mention "cow, horse, truck, pet and people-vents."

Just change out the load, which is actually feasible while away from the house or vehicle and on foot, whereas switching to your rifled shotgun slug barrel or swapping barrels on a single-shot isn't quite so convenient in this case.

Point for the 410 lever - I'm still engaged. Interesting thoughts and ideas.

 

[Bret4207]

The problem I see is accuracy. Are there even rifled choke tubes made for a 410 and if so, what diameter bullet is applicable and will the twist support a 200 gr bullet? IME with a slow twist you usually have to push a heavy for the caliber design hard to keep it grouping. If the available tubes are designed around an 85-ish gr slug and you're talking something 2 or 2.5 times as heavy (long)...well, look what an additional 10 grs did to the 6mm Remington! I think this would be an interesting experiment, but as far as practical applications...I dunno. Of course, I see alleged "Turkey Loads" for the 410 now, so what do I know!

 

[RBHarter]

I once handled a single shot marked "45-70 shot choked ".

 

[Ian]

1 turn in 38" has supported 200-grain .44 slugs since the Civil War.

 

[david s]

I spent a couple of high school years in Wisconsin. South of highway 40 was shotgun only north of highway 40 you could also use rifles. If paradox interest you you might look into shotguns with invisible rifling. Very little is new these days.