Opinion on Henry rifles

[35 shooter]

I know this is a Henry rifle thread, but much has been said about the slow twists in the 44 mag. rifles.

I found out today it seems the blue steel frame version of Uberti's 1873 rifle in 44 mag. has a 1/20" twist.
I just found it interesting that a foreign country gets the twist right on such an old toggle link design, but it's so hard to find in the stronger lever designs made here.

Lol, i'm not about to argue the wisdom of a steady diet of 44 mags. through a toggle link system, but found it interesting, both that it's chambered in a 1873, and that they knew it didn't need the slow twist of the old 44/40.

I do know though, that they have to go through very stringent pressure testing of the replica rifles to be able to export them here.

Anyway, i hope Henry will take heed of the calls coming in on the twist rate on the 44's before long.

 

[Ian]

Uberti's 1873 rifle in 44 mag.

I was like "WHAT?!?" That's just dumb. A 35K psi cartridge in a toggle-link action is asking for problems, unless it's an 1876 action, and even then it's questionable.

 

[35 shooter]

Yep, they've been making them for several years now. I was very surprised when i first saw them listed at their website. Even more surprised to find out what the twist rate was. It's the 73 for sure...not the 76 model.

They only come in the carbine 19" bbl. model and only in blued steel...no case hardened frames.
I tried a search on problems with them and the only thing said that i could find was from this year or maybe last year.

A customer called the co. and asked if they had any problems with them and was supposedly told..."we've sold a couple thousand so far and only 12 have come back...11 of those were for lever spring screws that had backed out."
They didn't say what the other one was for evidentally. Didn't find anything on warped frames or toggle problems...doesn't mean it hasn't happened though.

Supposed to be rated for saami factory 44 mag. I guess time will tell?

There may be other reports, but that's all i found. All i know about it so far has come from searches over on that "other site".
Kind of followed it out of curiousity for a couple of years now.

I bet some of the CAS sites have more "skivvy" on it, but haven't checked for that.

 

[Winelover]

Was just on Henry's site....can't find twist rates for any of their levers, except for the Big Boy Brass in 44 Magnum. No mention of a manual safety, except for a transfer bar and lacking half cock......pictures don't show any. What do they use to satisfy the lawyers? Another snafu is that their carbine has a 16.5" inch tube where most other manufactures call that length a Trapper. Their 20" barrel is listed as a rifle, rather than what is universally called, a carbine. Apparently, they don't make a true lever action rifle.

 

[Brad]

I too prefer a longer barrel. I want a 22-24 inch barrel on my levers if possible. The short barrel on the Marlin 1894C 357 is my biggest issue with the rifle. Now my 24 in barreled 1894CB in 45 Colt, it is just about perfect.

 

[Will]

I'm different. I really like the short barrels. I love my 16 1/4" barreled encore when I'm tree stand hunting.

 

[Ian]

.45 Colt in a 24" barrel is sure easy on the ears. My Taurus Thunderbolt copy is just about "hearing safe" with standard ammunition. Problem is it swings like a garden rake. Pistol-caliber leverguns to me should wear 16-20" barrels, otherwise I'll opt for a bolt-action RIFLE or a rifle-caliber levergun.

 

[Winelover]

.45 Colt in a 24" barrel is sure easy on the ears. My Taurus Thunderbolt copy is just about "hearing safe" with standard ammunition. Problem is it swings like a garden rake. Pistol-caliber leverguns to me should wear 16-20" barrels, otherwise I'll opt for a bolt-action RIFLE or a rifle-caliber levergun.

Agree, except some areas (Southern Michigan) a bottleneck cartridge isn't legal.

 

[Ian]

Agree, except some areas (Southern Michigan) a bottleneck cartridge isn't legal.

There is that. I also agree with your point that calling a 20" carbine a "rifle" in a catalog is a bit misleading. But, the owner described "case" coloring of gun parts in the promotional interview linked earlier in this thread as originally being done to prevent rust, so there are some disconnects there.

 

[9.3X62AL]

I am another "doubter" of the wisdom of chambering a toggle-link action in 44 Magnum. They could very well be "safe" with SAAMI-spec 44 Mag ammo, but that does beg the question "For how long?" If most of the shooting gets done with CAS-level cast bullet loads in the classic 44/40 performance envelope, I imagine all would be well. How they hold up with a steady diet of SAAMI-level full-tilt 44 Mags for a number of years has not been approached in print anywhere I can find. We called that a "clue" where I once worked.

This isn't a philosophical exercise--I want very much to get a levergun in 357 Magnum, and have for close to 2 years. Marlins have been unobtainium throughout that time, and the Henrys are terra incognita for me. I thoroughly enjoy my Miroku 92 carbine in 44 Magnum, and a Miroku 92 variant would suit me right to the ground. Finding one is the trick. I missed an example locally (Short Rifle) by about a week in June 2016. Any products by Marlin require hands-on exam before I'll move on them--a RemLin 1895 I bought a couple years ago has been an excellent rifle in all respects, but I would not have ordered it "in the blind" with any expectation of quality. The Mirokus are generally pretty good stuff.

The Grail Quest continues......

 

[Pistolero]

As far as the rifle vs carbine in leverguns, if we take Winchester as the example, the difference is how the magazine and
forend are attached to the bbl, more than bbl length. A carbine has a band around the bbl for the forend and another at
the front for the mag tube. In my experience, this causes accuracy problems. The rifle versions have the forend and the
mag tube supports dovetailed into the bottom of the bbl, and this seems to let the barrel vibrate more freely and improves
accuracy. There are short rifles in Winchesters and carbines with the same barrel lengths.

I have done pretty serious accuracy testing with three different 94 Wins and they have been very picky to hopeless to get
the kind of accy that my Marlin 95 GG does routinely. My Marlin 336 in .30-30 is a lot more picky than the GG - again,
it has two bbl bands. My 336 will shoot a few loads well, but a lot of handloads are more in the 4" range or larger at
100. The GG has the forend and short mag tube hung below the bbl like the Win short rifles. IMO, the odds of a
levergun Short Rifle shooting accurately, esp with many loads, should be far higher than the double banded carbines.

That said, I am sure that I will be deluged of stories of Win 94 carbines which put all shots in one inch at 100yds.
Fine, not saying they don't exist, but I haven't been able to purchase one that will reliably, with more than one load, do
better than 3-4" at 100 yds.

The .45-70 GG will easily do 1-1.5" 5 shot groups (scoped) with multiple loads. I also have a pair of Win .44 Mags, one a 94
and one sold under the Browning name but functionally a Win 92. Neither is particularly accurate, like best is around
2" at 50 yds with irons. I have a very early Win 94 rifle in .38-55 which was accurate right off once I got the bullet diameter
sorted out - I haven't finished development with it, but early results show that it should wind up doing 2" or a bit more
with the iron sights and my cast in a 120 yr old bbl with very, very shallow, very worn rifling.

Now for perspective, yes, ALL of them will kill a deer reliably at 100yds. There is no doubt that 3-5" at 100 yds is going
to be effective for deer. But IMO, it isn't very interesting to "play with". I believe Townsend Whelen has been
quoted as saying "Only accurate rifles are interesting." Yes, exactly.

I expect a short rifle to be more likely accurate than a double banded carbine. I recently got a dovetail cutter and if I
can find the time, I would like to convert one of the 94s to a dovetailed front mag tube support, which has a little slop in it
normally, with a screw into a hole in the bottom of the bbl to keep if from moving axially. Just the unthreaded tip in
a blind hole, not screwed in tight, axial location only.

Bill

 

[Ian]

If I can't get my Marlin .35 Remington to quit stringing six inches vertically from a ragged hole at 50 yards I'm going to take my safe-edge dovetail file and do that very thing, Bill. Gotta bed that loose forearm first though. It's amazing how much stress some of the leverguns have in the bands, forearm, and magazine tube. Some are like stringing a bow.

 

[fiver]

if you dovetail the 94 it will be how they done the 71's back in the day.

the carbine the short rifle and the rifle are all different things.
I would prefer to have the 20" short rifle but I have never seen one around here.
it has the right barrel length for carrying and the right stock for recoil.
the 16" carbines seem to me like holding a kids toy.
and the 24" rifles just get too heavy to carry all over a mountain all day even though they are more accurate.
I hain't shot any 1" 100yd. groups with my lever guns but I have shot some 5 shot groups that make a nice X shape.
of course a 44 or 45 cal group like that is no way gonna be under an inch.

 

[fiver]

someone mentioned the Browning 92.
I somewhat curse that rifle I liked it enough to figure out the barrel diameter, chamber to rifling length, and the oal it would feed weren't overly compatible.
it [and the 94 trapper] lead me to ordering my first swage die set so I could make 430 diameter jacketed bullets and place the cannelure in the proper place for feeding.
now it and that trapper both shoot.

 

[Dick West]

I hesitate to say this because y'all think i'm a wuss, but Boy, some of the folks here expect a lot out of a lever-action rifle and open sights.

As you can see by my photo, I think 2 or 3 MOA is a good day at the range with a 19.5" barreled Mod. 94. My Marlin 336, also 30-30, (circa '60s) does a little better (also with a peep sight). My Savage 99 in Sav. .300 and a tang sight and long sight radius, does even better, but that's not a lever under discussion here.

On the other hand, I don't have a tenth of the experience with rifles and handloading that most of you have in your little finger. So, I'm willing to be schooled and I'm certainly not trying to flame.

As for Henrys, I've had a few Henry rimfires--two levers, a pump and a single-shot bolt--their customer service is fantastic (the president has discussed a couple problems that cropped up with the rifles with me before making them right) and they are U.S. made. Consequently, I've given three rimfire Henrys to young relatives as first rifles. But I've only handled a couple H. centerfires and i kinda liked the tube load after years of pushing rounds in a side gate. They are, however, a hefty firearm.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Ian]

I meant scoped accuracy, Dick, mainly in light of what a levergun CAN do vs what expectations people have or practical accuracy in the field with irons. If I can hit a full-sized cow pie at 100 yards with barrel-mounted irons I'm ecstatic, but I have several leverguns that shoot right alongside fine bolt actions up to 100 yards. Aperture sights are a no-go for me excepting the large "ghost ring" type due to dense, permanent floater clouds in my vision.

 

[Dick West]

Gotcha, Ian. My six-decade+ -old eyes aren't what they used to be either. I probably should put a scope on my Marlin 336 just to see what it would do, but most lever guns, IMHO, are uglified by scopes.

BTW, my peep-sight accuracy goes to hell if the light's not perfect.

 

[Ian]

I really don't like scoping a levergun, either, but it's something I've had to get over if I want to still enjoy them. A nice El Paso Weaver K4 or K6 doesn't look too terrible or out of place on an old Marlin. Not sure what would do on a Henry, maybe something with a brass tube?

 

[Dick West]

i've got a couple K4s with no place to go. Maybe I'll try one on the marlin.

 

[Pistolero]

Dick,
You will find, or maybe already know, the Marlins are really easy to scope, and my GG was well worth it. The K3 on my old 336 is a bit
less of a proven need, but with certain loads the 336 does well. It is just picky as all get-out.

Ian, one thing I have worried about, and not yet done the measuring to verify if it is a
real problem or not is the thickness of the bbl wall where you want the dovetail. Most of
the dovetailed ones I have seen are octagon bbls, which gives a lot more meat in the bbl
wall. An alternative is soft soldering on a ring, with .010-.015 clearance on the tube, and
then using a screw at the tip for axial location like the factory does with either system.
You do have to heat the bbl, but not too hot for soft solder. You must remove the bluing
locally, and this can be tricky to do and keep it looking good. I have successfully soldered on
front sights, and the biggest non-obvious thing is that you need to make a holding fixture
with a strong leaf spring to push the sight (band) into position solidly with both parts
pre-tinned. I would clean off the pad for solder with Naval Jelly, phosphoric acid will
instantly remove bluing, be careful and use masking. Once the steel is bare, use acid
flux and tin the bbl in that spot. Fit and tin the band, use your fixture to spring it in
place, then warm the two parts and the tinning should flow them together. Sounds
easy. Usually takes me multiple tries.

Bill