PID controller advice?
- Thread starter Eagle223usa
- Start date
Mike W1
Active Member
Going by my experiences starting out sometime ago. You need a TC right. So you're new. How do you know enough to ask what kind? Sure now I know I want to order a K type. Why would I know I also need to know the PID should be with a SSR output not a relay output. Those type things are what I tell prospective assemblers. Polarity, etc.
I started with an Auber unit. They do have techs to answer questions. I'm not aware that any of the ones we use that do have techs other than those folks. Another thing I ask is how much they want to spend on things. That's a big factor for some too.
A little translation for us common folks is also quite helpful. Even Auber can be a bit confusing as the everyday guy isn't gonna get much out of instructions I've seen. I once built one with a Mypin for instance. I lucked out picking the right model Mypin but of the few things that actually have to be programmed I obviously missed the boat on that one as mine did not match the performance of my Auber unit and was returned. Now the Auber and the low priced REX C100's I have do very well and instructions for them in plain old english are readily available. Only 3 brands I've tried though I've seen Inkbird mentioned but not easy to understand hints for them.
Internet how to videos? I've seen a couple that tell you how to change a REX to read in fahrenheit and the changes are on the software menu in the parameters. But speaking of them they're obviously somewhat generic for their various models. It isn't gonna happen to work on the lower priced REX C100 and I've not found anyone that got that task done.
Point is most of us are going to need to ask questions from someone who's done it or we're gonna end up with parts that aren't necessarily going to do the job we want. We needed to be told part by part.
The new guy needs to define what he wants and how much he knows then one can give advice. I suppose you could count inputting the desired temperature but other than that most seem to come pretty well set. Not really what I'd consider programming is necessary.
Other than saving a few bucks putting your own together is hopefully you'll learn some things along that way that you likely aren't going to find out with a pre-assembled rig. Most of it will already start to soak into the old noggin by the time you actually turn it on.
I started with an Auber unit. They do have techs to answer questions. I'm not aware that any of the ones we use that do have techs other than those folks. Another thing I ask is how much they want to spend on things. That's a big factor for some too.
A little translation for us common folks is also quite helpful. Even Auber can be a bit confusing as the everyday guy isn't gonna get much out of instructions I've seen. I once built one with a Mypin for instance. I lucked out picking the right model Mypin but of the few things that actually have to be programmed I obviously missed the boat on that one as mine did not match the performance of my Auber unit and was returned. Now the Auber and the low priced REX C100's I have do very well and instructions for them in plain old english are readily available. Only 3 brands I've tried though I've seen Inkbird mentioned but not easy to understand hints for them.
Internet how to videos? I've seen a couple that tell you how to change a REX to read in fahrenheit and the changes are on the software menu in the parameters. But speaking of them they're obviously somewhat generic for their various models. It isn't gonna happen to work on the lower priced REX C100 and I've not found anyone that got that task done.
Point is most of us are going to need to ask questions from someone who's done it or we're gonna end up with parts that aren't necessarily going to do the job we want. We needed to be told part by part.
The new guy needs to define what he wants and how much he knows then one can give advice. I suppose you could count inputting the desired temperature but other than that most seem to come pretty well set. Not really what I'd consider programming is necessary.
Other than saving a few bucks putting your own together is hopefully you'll learn some things along that way that you likely aren't going to find out with a pre-assembled rig. Most of it will already start to soak into the old noggin by the time you actually turn it on.
Glaciers
Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Yeah I didn’t have any kind of neat and tidy box for the components and which parts to buy and so on. I was doing fine with a manual thermometer until I had enough set aside until I had the price of the “store” bought one as it was really an item I wanted but could do with out.
But after I started using my first one the purchase of the second one moved way up the priority list.
But after I started using my first one the purchase of the second one moved way up the priority list.
Tomme boy
Well-Known Member
Popper. These were just a single piece of plastic folded over. It had to seal the top, bottom, and one side. Then the side also had to cut off excess plastic and not break the seal. There was a wheel on the side that would keep tension on the tail end that was cut off. It wound it up onto a wheel. There was a friction clutch that had to stay lubed or it would tear the plastic apart if it got too tight.
Before I got there they had this straight to the wheel and we were fighting it all the time. So what I did was went and found a 12" piece of spring steel and welded a wire loop onto the end. I mounted it between the sealer and the wheel to act as a shock absorber. Kind of like the tip of a fishing pole. That solved 90% of the calls to this machine. We then put them onto all the other ones and the productivity went up almost 25% because of not having to shut the machines down to fix them.
Before I got there they had this straight to the wheel and we were fighting it all the time. So what I did was went and found a 12" piece of spring steel and welded a wire loop onto the end. I mounted it between the sealer and the wheel to act as a shock absorber. Kind of like the tip of a fishing pole. That solved 90% of the calls to this machine. We then put them onto all the other ones and the productivity went up almost 25% because of not having to shut the machines down to fix them.
L Ross
Well-Known Member
I hear you loud and clear. I'll read one of these posts, get excited, and then forget about it and never even write the check because what I have been doing works just fine. Magma Caster, (turned all the way up and taped in place by former owner), three RCBS pots I usually set the knob at about 800, and a turkey fryer and dutch oven and ladle for when I want really precise schuetzen or BPCR bullets.
I was doing fine without one too, but I was too cheap to spend $50 on an analog thermometer and I had the parts already. I'm getting along fine with the "technology" now, even though I tend to avoid it when not "at work." It made me a decent living for a while, but is not a passion. I started using the PID simply for the temp display, but it grew a little each time I cleaned up the bench or made an improvement on a pot or rearranged the stuff on the bench.
Now that I am thinking about this again, my brain is in "work-gear" and ideas started running through my head. There are hundreds of ways you could design one of these systems, from the most basic to over-the-top, the latter of which was often referred to by a friend/former boss as "creeping elegance." It is obviously more ideal to keep things simpler, but depending on one's own situation, there are always answers and options. A common answer to the question "can you make it do THIS?" was "how much money do you want to spend?"
Most of the initial confusion over the whole subject is related to terminology.
PROCESS VARIABLE (PV) is the actual temp value of the material being sensed.
SETPOINT (SP) is the desired temp value we have configured the controller to achieve and maintain.
These two terms are used ON the controller displays and extensively in the user/operator's manual.
Remember that the CONTROLLER itself will have terminals for:
INPUT POWER, which is usually 120VAC for our purposes and runs the thing;
SIGNAL INPUT, which is the SENSOR INPUT, like a TC or RTD, and most controllers have terminals for both and are configurable for various types of either;
An OUTPUT, which is a LITTLE switch power to the BIG switch (SSR) to your heat load. Read that again - your controller output is a little switch, controlling a big switch, which is controlling your heat load. The controller output is going to be solid state or relay contact. Solid State (magic rocks) is like the SSR we switch the heat load with, in that it doesn't physically open or close a circuit, but its composition allows it to "pass power" or not "pass power," depending on whether you've goosed it with the correct input voltage. A relay contact is a physical switch which is caused to physically/mechanically open or close, allowing power to pass or not pass. Outputs have voltage and current ratings - pay attention.
There are also ANALOG controller outputs, which produce a 0% to 100% signal (rough ananlogy - think dimmer switch in the living room), but is overkill for what we're doing, unless you're controlling a gas burner, but the control system/hardware for that would be complicated and expensive.
A Solid State Relay (SSR), the one we will use to switch our LOAD (the "BIG switch" for the heat source), has an input and an output as well. The input is typically a range of DCV from low to something over 24VDC. The SSR output is capable of switching an AC load and it is important to SIZE the SSR based on the number of AMPS you'll be switching, which is mentioned below. Pay attention to terminal markings and voltage and current ratings when ordering and wiring. THIS is the most common things my students mess up on this lab - putting the wires where they don't belong. SSRs get HOT. If yours fails after a couple years, you may have cooked it. A heat sink and proper clearance around it will help.
Someone mentioned making sure the controller output was 24 VDC:
Note that for a Solid State Relay (SSR) the INPUT on the SSR will be DC. The one I have handy requires 3VDC to 32VDC to "turn it on," or to cause the output side to switch the AC to "ON" going to your load (heating coil or outlet FOR the heating coil). The input voltage sent to the SSR has to be within that range. I've managed to "turn on" SSRs with as little as 1.5VDC, but don't count on it. No "special powers" on my part, just sloppy tolerances when manufactured. On the SSR, not me.
If you happen to have a RELAY output controller, it could still work to control an SSR one of four ways:
1) You have a separate DC power supply in your box, which you would switch to your SSR INPUT with the CONTROLLER OUTPUT. This is more money, more wiring, more heat, another fuse...
2) You could substitute a DC cell or battery and appropriate holder for the DC power supply (see the unappealing "option 1," above) and anything 2V through 32V will power the input to the SSR. A pair of AAs or AAAs, a 9V,... THEN, you have to be mindful of the cell or battery not dying on you eventually.
3) IF there's an onboard DC source - on the CONTROLLER - even if only 5V or 10V. Doesn't HAVE to be 24 VDC, but check your SSR to be sure. You could switch that onboard source through the RELAY OUTPUT on the CONTROLLER to the SSR INPUT.
4) Switch 120 VAC to a 120 VAC, Mecury Displacing Relay (MDR), which will not require a heat sink. These are like $200 though, but I had one and I used it. I just looked and these are something like $200 at Newark now.
BEST BET is to pay heed to the comment about the CONTROLLER OUTPUT being a DC output, but options 2 or 3 aren't terrible if you already have a relay-output controller.
Some things I don't normally see in such discussions:
AMPS!!!
P=IxE "Easy as PIE" to remember, and can be rearranged to determine either I or E as long as you know the other two variables.
My LEE pot is 500W( that's "P"). If I divide 500W by 120V (which is "E"), I should draw 4.1666 AMPS ("I," of course).
I would multiply 4.1666A by 1.25 to get a fuse size of "5.2" (I'd round to 5A) for the heating element or outlet for the pot.
I would size the control fusing separately based upon the ratings for the controller and SSR input, which won't be much.
My PC oven (commercial personal-sized pizza oven) is 1450W. If I divide 1450W by 120V, I should draw 12 AMPS.
You can take it from there.
The branch circuit you are plugging into in your garage IS a short-circuit-protected branch circuit, but you could still cook your element, your SSR, your controller, etc. before the circuit-breaker blows.
Wire size and outlet rating:
First, I use a SINGLE RECEPTACLE. Yeah, you probably already have 15A, 69-cent, ivory duplex receptacles and covers left over from a kitchen project from ten years ago, but if you spend a couple bucks on a 20A, single receptacle and cover, it looks more professional, no one will be tempted to use the "spare" receptacle and you have peace of mind. I never thought I'd run a PC oven off mine when I started, and it's three times the electrical load of my puny LEE lead pot. For what little wiring you have in one of these, and since you are putting in a 20A receptacle, use 12 AWG wire for the load circuit. The controls can be smaller wire, but it's nice to know you have a safety factor/expandability on the load.
NOTE that if your pot is 240 VAC, you will have to FUSE AND SWITCH BOTH LEGS! You have TWO HOTS on "residential 240."
TC type is usually configurable within the controller. I personally use J-Type TCs - because I had some really nice J-Type TCs, suitable for submersion in molten bullet alloy and all my K-Types were better suited to "air." Shop around, pay attention to temp ranges and especially the end you stick in the pot. Costs a bit more for a protected hot-junction (where the wires are welded together at the "hot end" of the TC), which might be why RCBS put theirs in in the heater box? You actually CAN use TC "lead wire" (like an extension cord made of the two dissimilar metals for that TC-type) and twist the two wires together at the hot junction and get it to work, although it's not ideal. I watched a team from a large aerospace company spend two weeks in my shop testing an oven, because only THEY could do it "right enough" for safety, implying that us hicks in Podunk might mess it up. The "TCs" they tossed and which I dug out of the trash can after they left were actually done like that. That's not why I don't fly, but I'm glad I don't.
Hope this helps someone.
Most of the initial confusion over the whole subject is related to terminology.
PROCESS VARIABLE (PV) is the actual temp value of the material being sensed.
SETPOINT (SP) is the desired temp value we have configured the controller to achieve and maintain.
These two terms are used ON the controller displays and extensively in the user/operator's manual.
Remember that the CONTROLLER itself will have terminals for:
INPUT POWER, which is usually 120VAC for our purposes and runs the thing;
SIGNAL INPUT, which is the SENSOR INPUT, like a TC or RTD, and most controllers have terminals for both and are configurable for various types of either;
An OUTPUT, which is a LITTLE switch power to the BIG switch (SSR) to your heat load. Read that again - your controller output is a little switch, controlling a big switch, which is controlling your heat load. The controller output is going to be solid state or relay contact. Solid State (magic rocks) is like the SSR we switch the heat load with, in that it doesn't physically open or close a circuit, but its composition allows it to "pass power" or not "pass power," depending on whether you've goosed it with the correct input voltage. A relay contact is a physical switch which is caused to physically/mechanically open or close, allowing power to pass or not pass. Outputs have voltage and current ratings - pay attention.
There are also ANALOG controller outputs, which produce a 0% to 100% signal (rough ananlogy - think dimmer switch in the living room), but is overkill for what we're doing, unless you're controlling a gas burner, but the control system/hardware for that would be complicated and expensive.
A Solid State Relay (SSR), the one we will use to switch our LOAD (the "BIG switch" for the heat source), has an input and an output as well. The input is typically a range of DCV from low to something over 24VDC. The SSR output is capable of switching an AC load and it is important to SIZE the SSR based on the number of AMPS you'll be switching, which is mentioned below. Pay attention to terminal markings and voltage and current ratings when ordering and wiring. THIS is the most common things my students mess up on this lab - putting the wires where they don't belong. SSRs get HOT. If yours fails after a couple years, you may have cooked it. A heat sink and proper clearance around it will help.
Someone mentioned making sure the controller output was 24 VDC:
Note that for a Solid State Relay (SSR) the INPUT on the SSR will be DC. The one I have handy requires 3VDC to 32VDC to "turn it on," or to cause the output side to switch the AC to "ON" going to your load (heating coil or outlet FOR the heating coil). The input voltage sent to the SSR has to be within that range. I've managed to "turn on" SSRs with as little as 1.5VDC, but don't count on it. No "special powers" on my part, just sloppy tolerances when manufactured. On the SSR, not me.
If you happen to have a RELAY output controller, it could still work to control an SSR one of four ways:
1) You have a separate DC power supply in your box, which you would switch to your SSR INPUT with the CONTROLLER OUTPUT. This is more money, more wiring, more heat, another fuse...
2) You could substitute a DC cell or battery and appropriate holder for the DC power supply (see the unappealing "option 1," above) and anything 2V through 32V will power the input to the SSR. A pair of AAs or AAAs, a 9V,... THEN, you have to be mindful of the cell or battery not dying on you eventually.
3) IF there's an onboard DC source - on the CONTROLLER - even if only 5V or 10V. Doesn't HAVE to be 24 VDC, but check your SSR to be sure. You could switch that onboard source through the RELAY OUTPUT on the CONTROLLER to the SSR INPUT.
4) Switch 120 VAC to a 120 VAC, Mecury Displacing Relay (MDR), which will not require a heat sink. These are like $200 though, but I had one and I used it. I just looked and these are something like $200 at Newark now.
BEST BET is to pay heed to the comment about the CONTROLLER OUTPUT being a DC output, but options 2 or 3 aren't terrible if you already have a relay-output controller.
Some things I don't normally see in such discussions:
AMPS!!!
P=IxE "Easy as PIE" to remember, and can be rearranged to determine either I or E as long as you know the other two variables.
My LEE pot is 500W( that's "P"). If I divide 500W by 120V (which is "E"), I should draw 4.1666 AMPS ("I," of course).
I would multiply 4.1666A by 1.25 to get a fuse size of "5.2" (I'd round to 5A) for the heating element or outlet for the pot.
I would size the control fusing separately based upon the ratings for the controller and SSR input, which won't be much.
My PC oven (commercial personal-sized pizza oven) is 1450W. If I divide 1450W by 120V, I should draw 12 AMPS.
You can take it from there.
The branch circuit you are plugging into in your garage IS a short-circuit-protected branch circuit, but you could still cook your element, your SSR, your controller, etc. before the circuit-breaker blows.
Wire size and outlet rating:
First, I use a SINGLE RECEPTACLE. Yeah, you probably already have 15A, 69-cent, ivory duplex receptacles and covers left over from a kitchen project from ten years ago, but if you spend a couple bucks on a 20A, single receptacle and cover, it looks more professional, no one will be tempted to use the "spare" receptacle and you have peace of mind. I never thought I'd run a PC oven off mine when I started, and it's three times the electrical load of my puny LEE lead pot. For what little wiring you have in one of these, and since you are putting in a 20A receptacle, use 12 AWG wire for the load circuit. The controls can be smaller wire, but it's nice to know you have a safety factor/expandability on the load.
NOTE that if your pot is 240 VAC, you will have to FUSE AND SWITCH BOTH LEGS! You have TWO HOTS on "residential 240."
TC type is usually configurable within the controller. I personally use J-Type TCs - because I had some really nice J-Type TCs, suitable for submersion in molten bullet alloy and all my K-Types were better suited to "air." Shop around, pay attention to temp ranges and especially the end you stick in the pot. Costs a bit more for a protected hot-junction (where the wires are welded together at the "hot end" of the TC), which might be why RCBS put theirs in in the heater box? You actually CAN use TC "lead wire" (like an extension cord made of the two dissimilar metals for that TC-type) and twist the two wires together at the hot junction and get it to work, although it's not ideal. I watched a team from a large aerospace company spend two weeks in my shop testing an oven, because only THEY could do it "right enough" for safety, implying that us hicks in Podunk might mess it up. The "TCs" they tossed and which I dug out of the trash can after they left were actually done like that. That's not why I don't fly, but I'm glad I don't.
Hope this helps someone.
Boy this takes me back. lol. I worked as an electrician/ electronics guy on food processing machines in a packing house. Those Germans tried to make everything idiot proof which is impossible, but they put on some elaborate safety electronic equipment in those machines. And of course water got into all of it and ruined my day.
I just bought the Auber unit with a K probe and an aluminum electronic 'box' to put it in. Get a decent heat sink for the SSR (mounted on the outside of the box and at min 25 Amp rated). Auber instructions are pretty good and in english. The thin K probes (cheap ones) break the wires after a while so get several or a certified Hi temp one (thicker wire cover). I just put the probe in the pot of melted alloy, remove before I turn the pot off. IIRC I auto tuned ONCE on a full cold pot (left the probe in). Just set temp desired and wait for it to do it's thing. Get the higher rated SSR as it gets reduced performance at high temp. Only part that needs a good heat sink. The PID controller is a box with display. Has a 115 VAC that runs the PID like a radio. Has a low voltage control output to the SSR (don't get the relay type unit). Voltage sensing connections for the temp probe. The SSR (solid state relay) has a 115 VAC input that runs the pot, a 115 VAC output to the pot, just a single wire in to a 'transistor switch' and output. Use the BLACK AC wire (hot) for safety - white is neutral (ground) line. I didn't use a fuse on the AC as it's not really needed - your light bulbs don't have one. I do use the 'protected' AC wall outlet to protect ME against a 'hot' controller or pot. Been hit by high voltage before and don't like it. Most of the SSR and PIDs have wiring diagrams but the above may help making sense of them.
Eagle223usa
Active Member
Thanks for the insights gentleman, I think I think I just need a link to send the credit card info! I've run wired before, and I can weld, but I'm no electronics wizard, I just want to control the heat for consistent bullets and stop cooking out all my tin!
Eagle223usa
Active Member
Anyone have a link to a reputable one I can buy? I really don't want to start another hobby in electronics. After reading all these responses it is more than I want to get in to. Thanks
Ian
Notorious member
Or just remember the "P=IXE" part as "electrical pixies". Very very good information to remember for any load, along with the 12-gauge for more than 15 amps. Many houses are wired throughout with 14 gauge wire for all the 110v outlets and that's barely good for 15 amps continuous load.
Ian
Notorious member
JWFilips
Well-Known Member
I bought an "Ink Bird" kit off e-bay ( came with a k type probe) This is only on my PC baking oven
The hardest part I found with that project is you can not run all 4 Heating elements as one circuit to the PID! They had to be split into 2 separate circuits; one for top elements and one for bottom elements! So I could not use the existing oven element wiring.
I also find it very helpful to run the auto calibration control for winter, spring, summer and fall ( the settings move depending on the environment and time of year)
The hardest part I found with that project is you can not run all 4 Heating elements as one circuit to the PID! They had to be split into 2 separate circuits; one for top elements and one for bottom elements! So I could not use the existing oven element wiring.
I also find it very helpful to run the auto calibration control for winter, spring, summer and fall ( the settings move depending on the environment and time of year)
seagiant1
Active Member
Hi,
Saw this, also be advised there are probably a few people making and selling these on this site!
Saw this, also be advised there are probably a few people making and selling these on this site!
PID Controller - Auber SYL-2352
Auber Instruments SYL-2352 PID Controller Auber Instruments: Auber 1/16 DIN PID Controller (SSR control output) SYL-2352 (1.89" x 1.89" x 4") $45.00 10" K type high temperature thermocouple for heat treatment $22.62 K Type Thermocouple Mini Connector, Plug $3.30 120V 15A US Socket, Panel...
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