Powder chose for 380 defensive loads.
- Thread starter Mitty38
- Start date
Rcmaveric
Active Member
I do reload 380. My only issue with Tight Group was the narrow charge window. Pressures got high quick. It performed well though. I switch to Unique because I larger charge window. I wanted more wiggle room for powder droppers and dippers.
Who am I kidding I just like working up loads. Do them all.
Who am I kidding I just like working up loads. Do them all.
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
Tried those 4 grain Auto Comp loads before breakfast this morning. Got aprox 2 inch groups at 7 yards with the Bersa Thunder , and about 3 inch with the Ruger LCP.
No leading issues at all. However I did get my first ever FTF in the Ruger. Last 2 rounds got longer.
So either with no crimp grove, and a taper crimp cartridge, the Combination of BLL and PC is just a little too slick. Or my crimp was not agressive enough.
No leading issues at all. However I did get my first ever FTF in the Ruger. Last 2 rounds got longer.
So either with no crimp grove, and a taper crimp cartridge, the Combination of BLL and PC is just a little too slick. Or my crimp was not agressive enough.
CWLONGSHOT
Well-Known Member
Aside from opinions of defensive reloads...
I bought a bunch of ARS APC (?) Bullets they are molded epoxy with powdered copper suspended then shaped into this new fluid technology style bullets. They are light for caliber. Mine where 65g. I was able to hit 1400 fps but dropped back to about 1325 ish. They shoot remarkably well.
I dont carry them defensively but have when in outdoors trail hikes and such.
I have to ckeck my notes on powders. But they had recomendations at bullet Manufacturer.
I bought a bunch of ARS APC (?) Bullets they are molded epoxy with powdered copper suspended then shaped into this new fluid technology style bullets. They are light for caliber. Mine where 65g. I was able to hit 1400 fps but dropped back to about 1325 ish. They shoot remarkably well.
I dont carry them defensively but have when in outdoors trail hikes and such.
I have to ckeck my notes on powders. But they had recomendations at bullet Manufacturer.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
I'm going to concur with CZ93x62 on the theory that penetration of the bullet should be a big part of your goal when seeking a load for the 380.
The criteria should breakdown exactly in this order:
The round MUST be 100% reliable in your pistol (for the OP that may be two different pistols). Any failure in reliability is unacceptable.
The bullet should penetrate deep enough to stop the fight. There is some disagreement on what those numbers are but I would say a minimum of 12" is a good place to start.
Expansion is COMPLETELY secondary to penetration. The bullet's first job is to reliably penetrate deep enough to stop the fight, expansion is merely the icing on the cake. I agree that with rounds like the 32 and 380, penetration is the first order of business and more difficult to achieve. I may not go with a RN or FMJ if I can help it, but a TC profile is probably the best you could hope for in a cast bullet.
If you end up with more than one load that meets ALL of the above criteria, the most accurate one is the winner.
SO, for the OP, of the three powders on hand, I would pick the one that produces the highest velocity within the acceptable pressure limits. I would then pick a bullet around 90 grains with a small flat point (like a TC profile) and test penetration. I would then adjust the alloy to get repeatable penetration of sufficient depth.
If that load is reliable in the OP's pistols, great.
The criteria should breakdown exactly in this order:
The round MUST be 100% reliable in your pistol (for the OP that may be two different pistols). Any failure in reliability is unacceptable.
The bullet should penetrate deep enough to stop the fight. There is some disagreement on what those numbers are but I would say a minimum of 12" is a good place to start.
Expansion is COMPLETELY secondary to penetration. The bullet's first job is to reliably penetrate deep enough to stop the fight, expansion is merely the icing on the cake. I agree that with rounds like the 32 and 380, penetration is the first order of business and more difficult to achieve. I may not go with a RN or FMJ if I can help it, but a TC profile is probably the best you could hope for in a cast bullet.
If you end up with more than one load that meets ALL of the above criteria, the most accurate one is the winner.
SO, for the OP, of the three powders on hand, I would pick the one that produces the highest velocity within the acceptable pressure limits. I would then pick a bullet around 90 grains with a small flat point (like a TC profile) and test penetration. I would then adjust the alloy to get repeatable penetration of sufficient depth.
If that load is reliable in the OP's pistols, great.
Hawk
Well-Known Member
You might find something here:
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Hawk
Well-Known Member
My 380 loads - AR15.COM
www.ar15.com
Whew, what an ordeal!
My 380 loads - AR15.COM
Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.
www.ar15.com
Whew, what an ordeal!
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Mitty38
Well-Known Member
Got my shopping done, wife's medical exam and needs taken care of, and my stuff bought for the shed build tomorrow. So done with running till it is time for T111 siding.
Going to load up 10 more at the previous specs, drop the BLL, tighten up the crimp a bit and see how they fly tomorrow when I take a break from barn building.
Going to make up some targets.
I only have plywood in 1\4 inch thick pieces. For a penitration test; wonder how thick I should make the test targets?
Going to load up 10 more at the previous specs, drop the BLL, tighten up the crimp a bit and see how they fly tomorrow when I take a break from barn building.
Going to make up some targets.
I only have plywood in 1\4 inch thick pieces. For a penitration test; wonder how thick I should make the test targets?
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Rcmaveric
Active Member
Never understand stood the twelve inches penetration thing. For animals yes. For humans, I am only about 6 inches deep. So unless your shooting through something with a G cup, 12 inches is a through and through. That waste energy as the body won't absorb that which passes through. Why the damage from an arrow is more severe than the damage from a bullet
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RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Most people aren't shot naked. Clothing and stuff in pockets make a big difference. I want T & T for a guy with 48 inch chest and 55 inch belly.
CWLONGSHOT
Well-Known Member
If your speaking about gel depths. Its because its absolutely NOT EQUAL to tissue!!! Its simply very repeatable and can be compaired to tissue. Do you know calibration? Its a 600 fps BB GUN!! Depth is needed to be something like 3" @ 50 degrees.
I dont know about you but I been shot pretty close with spring BB gun. On bare skin It JUST goes under skin. Pops back out like a hard pimple.So 12" equates to skin less than 60/70% actual depth.
Rick H
Well-Known Member
12" of penetration standard was a result of a study done after the FBI Miami shooting. One doesn't always shoot someone facing you full on. In the Miami case one of the defendants was shot from the side with a 9mm. penetration stopped just short of the heart. That suspect went on to shoot a number of agents even after that hit. While it may have been fatal given enough time, it lacked the penetration ability to reach the heart and stop the fight.
If a round has to penetrate an upper arm and a chest sideways, 12" is not an excess of penetration.
I am rarely a fan of FBI firearm recommendations In this case, after studying the failures in this shooting they came up with a decent standard. 12" minimum penetration through 4 layers of denim and ballistic gel. One can quibble over how relevant ballistic gel is, but it is about as good as we have these days. No one would stand for a redo of the Thompson-LaGarde tests shooting into live animals and cadavers. Apparently the ballistic gel tests do correspond with the results that have been observed in real life shootings as well.
If a round has to penetrate an upper arm and a chest sideways, 12" is not an excess of penetration.
I am rarely a fan of FBI firearm recommendations In this case, after studying the failures in this shooting they came up with a decent standard. 12" minimum penetration through 4 layers of denim and ballistic gel. One can quibble over how relevant ballistic gel is, but it is about as good as we have these days. No one would stand for a redo of the Thompson-LaGarde tests shooting into live animals and cadavers. Apparently the ballistic gel tests do correspond with the results that have been observed in real life shootings as well.
Rick H
Well-Known Member
[/QUOTE]
Spring BB guns velocity is more on the order of 300-350 fps. At double the speed penetration increases. The clincher for me is that the gel tests seem to correspond with autopsy reports. Perfect, of course not, but about as good as we have. What was an eye opener for me was how many times hollow points, clogged with clothing failed to expand. I didn't see that one coming.
Spring BB guns velocity is more on the order of 300-350 fps. At double the speed penetration increases. The clincher for me is that the gel tests seem to correspond with autopsy reports. Perfect, of course not, but about as good as we have. What was an eye opener for me was how many times hollow points, clogged with clothing failed to expand. I didn't see that one coming.
CWLONGSHOT
Well-Known Member
Thats where these new fluid technology bullets that are barrier blind will always be superior.
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
Well went to the range at daylight.
My 90 grain round nose powdercoated.
4.2 grain of Auto Comp crimped a little heavier then last load. No creaping of the bullet with either gun,
Not very scientific, but....
With Auto comp getting penetration thru, 1/2 inches of plywood and a moving blanket. At 21 feet.
My standerd practice round of 3.4 grain of Universal only made it 1/4 inch with the LCP and maybe 3/8 with the Bersa.
They both get my in under 3 inches on the rest, at 21 ft with both guns and no fliers. No failers. The Auto Comp Being a little tighter If not for me making a flinch, with the Bersa.
Looks like so far with my existing components the Auto Comp wins.
After I finish up on the work I have planed on my shed this evening. I will probably load up 50 more rounds the wife and I will go shooting. Using both mags for each gun. To assure myself of dependability. If that works out I will go ahead and load the rest of my 90 grain 380, Wit Auto Comp of Course.
The whole Idea of this was for me to make as an effective round as I can with what I have. Stock pile it a bit. For an oh crap situation where I would run out of my defence rounds. And also alloy my wife to practice freely her shooting, with the . 380. I believe I have accomplished that.
My 90 grain round nose powdercoated.
4.2 grain of Auto Comp crimped a little heavier then last load. No creaping of the bullet with either gun,
Not very scientific, but....
With Auto comp getting penetration thru, 1/2 inches of plywood and a moving blanket. At 21 feet.
My standerd practice round of 3.4 grain of Universal only made it 1/4 inch with the LCP and maybe 3/8 with the Bersa.
They both get my in under 3 inches on the rest, at 21 ft with both guns and no fliers. No failers. The Auto Comp Being a little tighter If not for me making a flinch, with the Bersa.
Looks like so far with my existing components the Auto Comp wins.
After I finish up on the work I have planed on my shed this evening. I will probably load up 50 more rounds the wife and I will go shooting. Using both mags for each gun. To assure myself of dependability. If that works out I will go ahead and load the rest of my 90 grain 380, Wit Auto Comp of Course.
The whole Idea of this was for me to make as an effective round as I can with what I have. Stock pile it a bit. For an oh crap situation where I would run out of my defence rounds. And also alloy my wife to practice freely her shooting, with the . 380. I believe I have accomplished that.
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RBHarter
West Central AR
You could of course I would imagine one beat a body to death with a 2oz ball/peen but a 32oz framer cuts to the chase faster . An 8# sledge hammer will getter done rat now . There's a place for each 9 and 90 gr at 850 fps isn't ideal for even a clean shot at 75 ft . It's for across the table , arm's length , and less .
The WC and arrow comparison is always a joy . Legal big game bows only develop about 35 ftlb but the frontal area is only .325 and none of that is vertical and why a 44 mag rated vest doesn't stop an arrow @400 gr and 250 fps . I've never seen a jello test with a long bow but I bet it's not really reassuring on the business end .
Long bullets go deep fat bullets don't but they break a lot of stuff if they are heavy enough .
If you don't carry it even if it's anemic is a paperweight in the safe .
Strive for best velocities and hope you never need it .
The WC and arrow comparison is always a joy . Legal big game bows only develop about 35 ftlb but the frontal area is only .325 and none of that is vertical and why a 44 mag rated vest doesn't stop an arrow @400 gr and 250 fps . I've never seen a jello test with a long bow but I bet it's not really reassuring on the business end .
Long bullets go deep fat bullets don't but they break a lot of stuff if they are heavy enough .
If you don't carry it even if it's anemic is a paperweight in the safe .
Strive for best velocities and hope you never need it .
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
Yep. the wife has issues and cannot shoot a 9 well, or handle physically a heavier pistol, very long. So we work with what we have. She does Very well with the .380, like head shots, heart shots every time at 21 feet, or less. With me yelling for distraction. Even moving. So she has placement. Most people do not wear coats on there face.
So there you go.
Our strategy is to do what ever we can to get away. With out a gun unless nesesary.
If unrest happens while we are out. Get to the vehicle the ammo and "other gun" then home.
So there you go.
Our strategy is to do what ever we can to get away. With out a gun unless nesesary.
If unrest happens while we are out. Get to the vehicle the ammo and "other gun" then home.
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Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
I'm not a "gelatin junkie" but I agree with Rick that ballistic gelatin gives us a repeatable standard by which to compare results. It doesn't translate perfectly to the real world but it is repeatable. So from a scientific point of view, it gives us a good method of comparison; that's all. It's a yardstick.
And as Rick correctly pointed out, the minimum depth of penetration standard is based on the fact that gunfights rarely occur with naked people facing you head on.
I will add that the goal is NOT to produce a beautifully mushroomed bullet. The goal is to stop the fight. Ammunition manufacturers have sold millions of rounds of self defense ammunition packaged in flashy boxes accompanied by lots of advertising with pictures of mushroomed bullets. I can promise you that if someone is trying to hurt you or someone you care for, you're not going to give a damn what the bullet looks like when it's over.
The first order of business is the cartridge must work in your gun. Any failures to feed and function are deal breakers.
The second order of business is the bullet must reliably penetrate deep enough to reach something important enough to stop the fight.
After achieving adequate penetration, bullet expansion can be the icing on the cake but it is secondary to penetration.
When dealing with smaller calibers and short barrels, adequate penetration is often difficult to reliably achieve.
One of the reason the European spec 32 ACP round was effective, even with a FMJ; was the relatively high velocity coupled with a small frontal area. More often than not, it would at least penetrate deep enough to get the job done..
Given the OP's limitations in components, I think he's on the right path. If possible, I would look for a powder that gives the highest velocity. Once that was achieved, I would adjust the alloy
If it were not for the current situation, I would suggest that he just go buy a couple of boxes of factory loaded SD ammo that had a proven track record. It's just easier. But these are not normal times.
And as Rick correctly pointed out, the minimum depth of penetration standard is based on the fact that gunfights rarely occur with naked people facing you head on.
I will add that the goal is NOT to produce a beautifully mushroomed bullet. The goal is to stop the fight. Ammunition manufacturers have sold millions of rounds of self defense ammunition packaged in flashy boxes accompanied by lots of advertising with pictures of mushroomed bullets. I can promise you that if someone is trying to hurt you or someone you care for, you're not going to give a damn what the bullet looks like when it's over.
The first order of business is the cartridge must work in your gun. Any failures to feed and function are deal breakers.
The second order of business is the bullet must reliably penetrate deep enough to reach something important enough to stop the fight.
After achieving adequate penetration, bullet expansion can be the icing on the cake but it is secondary to penetration.
When dealing with smaller calibers and short barrels, adequate penetration is often difficult to reliably achieve.
One of the reason the European spec 32 ACP round was effective, even with a FMJ; was the relatively high velocity coupled with a small frontal area. More often than not, it would at least penetrate deep enough to get the job done..
Given the OP's limitations in components, I think he's on the right path. If possible, I would look for a powder that gives the highest velocity. Once that was achieved, I would adjust the alloy
If it were not for the current situation, I would suggest that he just go buy a couple of boxes of factory loaded SD ammo that had a proven track record. It's just easier. But these are not normal times.