Powder Coated Bullet Article in Handloader Magazine this month

[RicinYakima]

I picked up a copy of the new Handloader this morning and found the article by Charles Petty.
Any comments about his results from the guys that powder coat bullets? Not trying to start a fight, but would like to hear some discussion. The results are almost exactly the same as published in The Fouling Shot magazine last year for rifle bullets.

 

[Ian]

Without reading either article I can't say.

My results have been to the effect of being able to push plain-based bullets about 30-40% faster with the same group dispersion, no cold-barrel flyers (other than suppressed due to FRP), clean barrels, and virtually smoke-free shooting.

Last time I pulled a lubrisizer handle was back in the spring when I prepped a couple dozen bullets for a little test to answer another member's question.

 

[waco]

Ian. What effect if any are you finding on the nose of a rifle bullet with PC? It has to make it larger, right? Do you have to seat the bullet deeper in the case because of this? Will this affect accuracy of a proven load with traditional lube?
Please let us know.
Walter
PS I have 12 NOE 30 Hunters with HR red in the oven now to test my 10.5gr Red Dot load to see if it shoots as well.
I'd like your input.

 

[gman]

While not Ian I can tell you that on the NOE 35-200 it does increase the size. I started casting this bullet for a CVA Scout II in 35 Remington. Now even before PC'ing I had to seat this bullet deep in order for it to chamber. I ended up extending the throat just enough to chamber. My 336 Marlin is the same only with the pc'd version. I've yet to ream that rifle. For the CVA PC'ing made a huge accuracy improvement even pushed hard.

 

[Ian]

Using Polyester TGIC powder and shake/bake/airsoftBB/nodleneese plier pick/stand on bases method I usually get at least a one thousandth-thick coating. Just a little more usually. This is a problem with many bullet noses, but is a neat fix for some of Lyman's famously undersized bullet moulds. Unfortunately, I let about ten undersized moulds go that I wish I had back now, REALLY wish I had a couple in particular back.

I don't know about the 30 Hunter. I have criticized that bullet design from the beginning because it has a parallel bore-riding section. If it had been made as a two-taper design, it would have been perfect and a LOT more versatile.

That's why I designed the Accurate 31-188G. Just seat it two or three thousandths deeper when coated and keep on keeping on.

HF PC is epoxy based. That's fine, but it's a lot more brittle than the polyester powders.

 

[waco]

The NOE 30 Hunter shoots just fine as is in my .308

 

[RicinYakima]

Sorry, just thought someone else would be reading written gun magazines. I can't morally send copywrited material to the internet, and cheat people out of their wages.

In both articles, accuracy was worse with PC bullets. Not by much, but consistently so, however everything else is correct: no leading, cleaner, less smoke, not sticky and cleaner to handle.

Ric

 

[gman]

Ric I read that article as I get the magazine. Turned straight to it as I was eager to read it. I've witnessed improvement with my pc'd bullets. I decided to give it a try after using traditional lube for many years. I haven't tested it in all my guns by far but those I did have shown higher velocity, cleaner barrels and in some better accuracy. Also the ability to shoot softer bullets. It's just another option.

 

[Ian]

The NOE 30 Hunter shoots just fine as is in my .308

That's good, it should fit a lot of rifles that have a little wear on the lands and aren't a rigid .300" right in front of the funnel. I have two that wouldn't even start to chamber it. Another two that would take it pretty easily, and some other .30 calibers that would likely shoot extremely well with it. The 188G fits them all, even powder coated. It also bangs through my M1A without sticking or the nose getting bent. When I get around to shooting it in all of the rifles seated to fit the tightest one, I'll give a report on it. Having shot about 25-30 pounds of the 30 SIL bullets, I expect similar results and a wide tolerance for jump.

 

[Ian]

Sorry, just thought someone else would be reading written gun magazines. I can't morally send copywrited material to the internet, and cheat people out of their wages.

In both articles, accuracy was worse with PC bullets. Not by much, but consistently so, however everything else is correct: no leading, cleaner, less smoke, not sticky and cleaner to handle.

Ric

Interesting. It must depend on what one considers "good" to begin with. If it make a half inch group into a 3/4" group consistently, then it sure isn't an improvement. So far I have found that powder coating both rifle and handgun bullets vastly improves the groups. That includes .45 ACP in both my AR rifle, convertible revolver, and two different automatic handgun platforms as compared to my best lubed GG bullets. In the 300 blackout, it's simply outstanding. One that has tripped me up a bit is subsonic .308 which in the one rifle I shoot that load will put three in the same hole with two flyers just about every time at 50 yards....but the bullet doesn't fit the chamber or throat for beans. My .38 Special revolvers have become sniper guns with a good PC load I developed, but that doesn't say much for my plain-based loads because I never really got them to shoot better than 4" at 50 yards...or maybe it's just me. But PC shoots better than jacketed in both of them.

I admit I haven't really wrung-out powder coated bullets at any sort of decent velocity, nor have I done much 100 or 200 yard shooting with them other than my Blackout ARs. Mostly I've been using PC to solve specific problems such as accuracy and function destroying damage from being fed through AR-15s of various and sundry calibers, gas system bugaboos with lubed, plain-based case bullets, and most of all the issue of shooting lubed bullets through sealed suppressors that cannot be taken apart and cleaned. I don't even like taking apart my registered homemade suppressors to clean them any more than absolutely necessary, and PC extends the shot count between cleanings by a factor of at least ten.

Gman has it right, PC is just another tool in the box. I'm working with it a lot right now to see how many situations it can improve. As of yet I have no temptation to yank all five lubrasizers off my bench, but just like with SL-68.1, I started testing it like so many things befor it and the development just sort of stopped, meaning as I continue to put lead down range nothing jumps out at me to indicate any tweaks are really necessary.

 

[RicinYakima]

It sounds like we are all on the same page. A modern technique to achieve specific results. I hope someone shoots a big game animal this season and recovers a PC bullet. I'm beginning to think of this as a modern "paper patch"; the ability to use very soft alloy to make a very effective game bullet.

 

[Ian]

I've smashed powder-coated bullets into coins and the coating never flaked off. It's good stuff, better if applied via the embedment method (shaken violently for about 30-45 seconds with airsoft bbs in a sealed container) because the raw powder is very abrasive and actually makes the bullet surface appear sandblasted if you take one out and dust the powder off for a look-see. The PC really bites into that sort of surface. The coated bullets are smooth and the shaking oddly doesn't damage the delicate edges of the bullets if you find the correct ratio of bullets, powder, and bbs.

I also maintain that embedment makes a more even coating than is possible from ES spraying. Nothing beats the finish of sprayed bullets, but look good doesn't always mean shoot good if you can't precisely control the coating thickness and uniformity.

IF the coating method is perfected and loading techniques carefully optimized for the needs and advantages of the coating, I have every confidence that coated bullets would far surpass traditional lubed bullets for precision shooting. The main reason for that is the coating removes any and all inconsistencies associated with cast bullet lubricants, and as we all know most bullet lubes are NOT transparent when it comes to affecting the consistency of a shot string.

I read a long and most excellent thread a while back on the CBA about some 6mm plain based shooting with PC and HiTek. Lots of the "right kind" of truly scientific effort went into the testing. My only criticism of the tests was the PC coating itself needed a little help with the application technique, in fact I'm amazed they worked as well as they did for as splotchy and un-even as the coating appeared. Of course any 6mm bullet blown up to full screen size in a high-res pic is going to look terrible, but I've taken pictures of my .22s and they come out pretty good. Now, if I could only learn to load and shoot as well as that gentleman...

 

[RicinYakima]

I have followed mtngun and cheered him on through the whole 6 MM tests. It is amazing that he can shoot them that fast (3000 f/s) and still get 2 MOA five shot groups. He makes his own moulds (Mountain Molds) and does his own gunsmithing, he knows what works for him. He is the cutting edge of trying to make coated bullets group.

p.s. I have three of his moulds made from his on-line program, and are great! Nope, no interest in the business and never meet the man personally.

 

[62chevy]

I PC to stop minor leading and it does that just fine. But it also has other benefits like less smoke and cleaner barrels. As far as accuracy goes I have nothing but the seat of my pants to compare to and that says no difference in my pistols and hard to say in my rifle.

 

[Ian]

I didn't realize that was Dan doing the 6mm tests. I sort of live under my own private rock, and here on-line.

Mebbe I do a tutorial on how I PC with some close-up pics if my camera will cooperate. Read my thread about "it shouldn't work but it does" and see why I'm so amazed at how the Polyester jacket can make even a super-sloppy fit situation shoot well enough for combat or hunting and have absolutely zero leading issues. Don't even dare try a bullet that fits that poorly without a jacket of some sort (Pass me another Chore Boy pad please, and did that last shot hit the berm???)

 

[RicinYakima]

Ian, I fear leading! I love small groups! that is why I am following so closely.

 

[Brad]

That is what is so interesting about shooting cast. Some want small groups, some high velocity, some want cheap. Everything in between too.
Ric, I bet if you asked real nice Ian would PC some bullets for you to try. Send some of your of a known quality and known to shoot well and see what you can get from them.

Sorry for volunteering you Ian!

 

[RicinYakima]

Thanks Brad! and we don't have to put Ian to that task, as I have already done that. I wrote the article for The Fouling Shot and the results were published, using four weight and visually sorted groups of my match bullets, PC'd with different techniques. Someone else is carrying on the experiments after me, as I just don't have the energy to chase that rabbit. That is why I'm sticking by my statement that it does everything people claim it does, except that it shoots groups almost as good as lubed bare gas checked bullets.

 

[M3845708Bama]

I have been working with long bore rider bullets for a couple of years now and the potential has not been reached or really even come close yet. There are a couple of bullet molds being made by Arsenal designed specifically for PC in 308 and 6 mm that show strong promise. The long bore riders are sized on bore rider portion to just slide into bore and the drive band portion is just over one caliber in length. Velocities usally run from 150 to 350fps over information given for book or reloading book projected velocities for the particular load. As long as I don't try to go rediculously fast the accuracy is very close to jacketed accuracy with anything but match grade bullets. They seem to work well and as mentioned bores are clean, they feed well and they really carry a punch especially the 200 grn 30 cals. Its worth trying.

 

[Ian]

There's a whole lot more to your success than a little paint and a good nose fit, Bama, lest anyone take your statements out of context, which they probably will.

Grooveless bullets have never worked for me with PP or PC at any sort of speed. Maybe I'm about to learn something from those new, "slick" moulds.