Powder Coated Bullet Article in Handloader Magazine this month

[fiver]

I wanna touch on a comment Ian made.
a specific amount of BB's to an amount of bullets and an amount of powder.
this is the one thing that really helped me lay down a better more consistent coat.
if I shook the cup and seen any extra powder in there I rolled and shook again until the powder was used up or broken down.
I then tossed the extra little bit of powder if there was any and measured out again for the next batch.
I could tell the measured amount of bullets was 1-2 light when I had extra powder.
I'm sure if I counted and weighed instead of scooped I could get things down to just about perfect.
when I get to rifle stuff I will be counting and weighing and measuring for sure.

 

[popper]

I've been ESPC with HF red and gotten good results (in comparison with 168gr Amax - closest to match I have). My moulds are virtually grooveless. One is PB 145gr that goes 2100 in BO - didn't coat the base so port G.C. made circular pattern - 2.5 MOA @ 100. Remove 2 obvious flyers (not called) and 1.5 MOA. I've shake & bake now with bases coated to retry. 1.5 MOA @ 200 with GC 165 gr, 2400 fps for 3 shot group. My excuse - BDC scope crosshairs @ 100 so I used the 3rd ring down centered on a round steel target with no bullseye. Excuses aside, if i resolve my problem area, should be MOA all the way. I have an idea to make bore riders work well but no rifle to shoot them in.

 

[Kevin Stenberg]

5R have you found any negative results with extra powder in your shaking container? I ask because I don't add more powder every time I coat bullets. There is always loose powder in the bottom of my application container. I may go 5 or 6 batches of bullets until I add more powder.
I do tap all bullets as I place them on my baking tray. So I remove all extra powder.
And recently have found 3/8 " screen that I pour powder, BB's, bullets on to separate the bullets. Which also helps remove excess powder without leaving uncoated spots.

 

[waco]

5R have you found any negative results with extra powder in your shaking container? I ask because I don't add more powder every time I coat bullets. There is always loose powder in the bottom of my application container. I may go 5 or 6 batches of bullets until I add more powder.
I do tap all bullets as I place them on my baking tray. So I remove all extra powder.
And recently have found 3/8 " screen that I pour powder, BB's, bullets on to separate the bullets. Which also helps remove excess powder without leaving uncoated spots.

This is how I do it as well.

 

[M3845708Bama]

Ian, my experience has been very good so far. The only problem so far is getting the bore rider section sized to fit the bore. To date I have been sizing with no lube to get good adhesion with PC. I have kissed 3000 fps with the lightest ones in 6mm so far through crony. Accuracy started going down just over 2400fps. The shooter who designed the bullets is now working on one that will not have to be sized for most 308 and 6mm barrels. He is in testing phase now. a few of the recovered bullets show full rifling engagement to within 3/16" of the tip and show no signs of smearing or stripping. They are fun and get a number of comments at range. Have not had chance to test on game in field.

 

[fiver]

I don't like extra powder.
it appears to me to break down and doesn't coat the same if I add more or just leave it in there it keeps on growing in amount.
I just [gut feeling and measured results] think putting in enough without going overboard is the right thing to do.
it might be just the pigment breaking out, but it's something that's not going where it should be.

 

[Ian]

Bama, you and I have both recovered our own bullets and made some connections between group size and what is happening to the bullet as it is passing through the rifle. Most of my observations have been with traditionally-lubed, gas-checked bullets, but the observations were the same: There is a certain point when groups start to shrink, relating to how much the bullet has changed shape, particularly the metal which flows into the grooves between the as-loaded forward (full diameter) bearing surface and bore-diameter portion of the nose. A lot of us call this "bump". It isn't slump, it's hydraulic extrusion. Too much or too little and things don't work as well as when that amount of "bump" is just right. I bet we could look at each other's bullets and make a really good guess of which ones grouped the best at high velocity.

I think there is much truth to your statement about near-full rifling engagement in the nose area being a major factor to improved HV groups. But without good loading techniques that cause that metal to displace uniformly and yield a balanced bullet with a square base and true tip coming out of the muzzle, any significant deformation of the bullet besides land engraves is going to be very deleterious to accuracy/consistency, and gives a lot of people trouble when they push the envelope. Uneven bullet distortion when fired, and alloy or bullet surface which abrades and loses bore obturation are the two biggest roadblocks I've been able to identify in the quest for shooting cast bullets as fast as jacketed, and as consistently. Slick paint and precise static fitment, combined with an alloy and powder pressure curve that cooperate within the system to achieve the necessary end of a balanced bullet in flight, seem to be working very well for you and I'm very happy you're sharing your work with us. I never quite got to full jacketed velocity/consistency with ordinary cast bullets, but have gotten within 10% a few times. Based on the work you and Dan have done I believe PC will get that last little bit.

 

[Ian]

On the PC proportion:

It's a Goldilocks thing too. Container size, bb quantity, bullet quantity, and powder quantity in the correct proportions are important if you want a consistent, even coating. When you use a hard-impact method, aka "shake the bejeezus out of it", an excess of powder will make clumps and thick spots which will not tap off easily, or at all. If there are too many bullets for the container size, or too many bullets relative to amount of bbs, or too little powder present, the bullets will get damaged by the shaking. Too much powder or not enough bullets, clumping happens. Too many bbs and the coating doesn't get embedded well enough, or evenly enough, it's kinda dotty like a golf ball. Too many bullets for the system and too gentle of a shaking also cause pocks and thin spots in the finish.

When I'm done shaking, the bullets have an even coating that sticks very well and has very few imperfections, and there is very little powder remaining loose in the container, usually only about a pinch. I do measure the powder I add to each batch of bullets, using a plastic spoon and Justin Wilson estimation (except I don't put it in my hand). After a while I have gotten a good feel for how much powder a given pile of bullets dumped in a container will need. I suppose it could be quantified precisely, but haven't felt the need.

I think it's important to add that if you're coating for IPSC ammo, or for short range handgun work, all this precision is totally irrelevant. It has proven relevant to me when lobbing 300 blackout at 200 yards, though, and if I don't pay attention to getting your coating nice and even, or don't stand my bullets on their bases while the coating cures, the difference on target is measured in feet.

 

[fiver]

I think it has the possibility to get there also but it is going to take a system of how much of what and where.
I think about it like the difference between black powder and smokeless paper patching.
one needs some land engraving, gas obstruction, paper slicing, and no neck tension to work.
the other is bore diameter and relies on instant powder ignition to do the work.

 

[Ian]

The PC fouling becomes a problem, and SD is difficult to control with slippery, PC bullets and slow-burning rifle powders, same as it is with slippery lube. It won't be a cake walk. I'm just happy to be able to hit the 200 fps "easy button" to boost a proven, mid-range load combination on demand without having to change much else other than put some lipstick on the bullets and add more powder.

 

[Kevin Stenberg]

Ian once again You have gotten the rusty wheels in my head turning. I have never considered that the over abundance of BB's, powder, or even how hard I shake my bullets would make or break bullet quality.
I assumed (ya I know, what I get) the more BB's the less damage made by less bullet contact. That is why I use about 1.5" of BB's in my container.
I leave loose powder in the bottom of the shaking bowl so the bullets will have good contact with all the powder they can be covered with. With all of the extra powder ending up back in the bottom of my shaking cont.
An I give the bullets as hard a tap on the shaking bowl as I can without damaging them. To remove any loose powder that is not strongly atatched to them. I also have tried dropping the coated bullets in a second bowl from 6 or 8" high to remove the extra powder.

 

[fiver]

I pour them into a small metal container with holes big enough for the BB's to fall through.
then dump the bullets into another container that I pick them out of to stand up.
when I say dump I mean gently roll.
everything plastic is number-5 pete and has a fine coat of powder on it.

I shake the bullets in a cup that is about the size of a 30oz soda cup.
and I'm really just trying to float the bullets through the BB's more than bang everything around.

 

[JWFilips]

I tried PC on a tip from Ian that it would improve shooting in my old worn Spanish Mauser with a sewer pipe bore. At fist I tried HF red it was petty easy and stopped leading definitely did better on target. I did not like the coating because it always looked blotchy however so I switched to Smokes powder and black air soft BBs
Right from the start it coated better baked on better and was more even.
The coating is tough I actually sized bullets down.005" and you couldn't even tell , no abrasion. And as per Ian's advise I haven't cleaned the bore and each trip to the range, the rifle shoots better. Seems to be fixing the rough bore!
Just a dry patch through after shooting ( just to satisfy the need that there is no lead in it)

 

[JWFilips]

Ian,
I tink a how too article on how you do it would be great to have here!
Jim

 

[Ian]

I just copied what everyone else was doing with the BBs and polypropylene containers and experimented with proportions and agitation techniques until I got something that worked to my own satisfaction.

 

[62chevy]

I just copied what everyone else was doing with the BBs and polypropylene containers and experimented with proportions and agitation techniques until I got something that worked to my own satisfaction.

Same way I figured out powder coating.

 

[M3845708Bama]

Ian have question, have you notice a marked improvement in jacketed bullet accuracy after shooting PC cast? With one of mine there is a marked improvement. Good enough in fact I will shoot 10 PC before shooting jacketed. Life is good.

 

[Ian]

Actually, yes, but it could well be a fluke. I got an AR-Stoner (Midway glarbage) 14.5". 1:7 twist 5.56 barrel for one of my ARs, welded a suppressor-mount brake on it to make rifle length, and mostly shoot heavy, PC cast bullets through it. BUT, I occasionally shoot jacketed. The bore is like a snake that swallowed an egg, getting big right after the gas port, and big at the bayonet mount, push a patch through it and it's tight-loose-tight-loose. Anyway, after a few hundred PC subs and a few jacketed scattered in between, I noticed it grouping better and better with jacketed. That is to say it went from dismal (3-4 MOA at any range) to decent 1.5 MOA, which may have simply been due to a little break-in, or the PC. I have not had a patch down the bore since I installed the barrel and did an initial brushing/cleaning.

 

[popper]

IMHO excess PC in the bowl retains moisture and tends to clump on the cast. I remove with hemostats and tap base hard on a hard surface to remove excess. I also noticed that the nose piece I recovered from hitting steel @1700 fps did not show any rifling marks. Non- bore rider and relatively hard alloy 3%Sb with tad of Cu, H.T. So no hydraulic exterusion of the nose (good term ). I should be able to use a softer alloy if I shot a bore-rider. Hasn't worked with AC alloy yet even with slower load.
edit: I use a 62 cup rubbermaid snap on top and just swirl, up/down lightly to get powder back up into the boolits., swirl some more. Lots of up & down doesn't do anything for me. Maybe 1/2" layer of BBs, 80-90 rifle boolits.

 

[JWFilips]

So, what is the latest consensus: Do we still swirl around the container or are we shaking up and down (& for how long)?
Is there some proportion of powder, BBs and bullets that is the best?
I'm still new at this and am just amazed the stuff sticks to the bullets and melts so evenly in the oven. Not to mention isn't fazed by resizing!
So Far I really likes Smoke's Gray powder however I really would like to try the "Clear Coat" powder Has anyone tried that yet?