RCBS 145SIL nose size die

[fiver]

personally I want to know why, does it matter.... no.
if you know there is a difference and you know how to control the outcome that's probably enough.

remember lead doesn't work harden it work softens.
the why of that is because your breaking down the internal structure of the alloy, your making it closer to,, to well, pure lead.
only it depends on the actual alloy as to how far down your getting.
antimony crushes and fragments making the lead actually flow easier.
you have to bend and break the tin for that to happen, and then you still have half of a nodule there trying do its job.
you actually have a higher chance of shearing off pieces with tin, rather than rolling back and flattening further like antimony will.
if you combine the two then the whole thing changes again, and it also depends on how soon after casting the change takes place as to how the whole thing is affected.

 

[Intheshop]

OK,work softens..... my premise was where,not only in the cycle of events,but also where on the bullet.

Like I said,and still maintain....would rather not do any "pre compression/sizing"..... letting the barrel do the work. There is a difference in a taper die coming down on the bullet nose than what you see running the body through a parallel die arrangement.

For instance(was gonna put it,and the compression thing in a different thread),how does knurling on say a swaged 38 wadcutter effect the surface of the bullet? Is it making it work soften?

 

[Intheshop]

Getting good at knocking out fixturing for base milling. This one took about an hour from scrap pile to taking .020" off the first 5.
I learned a cpl tricks when making the first one for those 100g 7mm's from the Lee 130.

And there's a noticeable difference in the runout of an installed GC. You can see it at a glance compared to just going with as cast bases.

 

[Intheshop]

Now I can change the base's dimension/position independent of the body's place in the case..... pretty dang quickly. Faster than sizing and lubing.... and on a whole magnitude higher level of precision.

 

[462]

I doubt that pure lead will work soften.

 

[Spindrift]

....and the milled bases show no porosity from the sprue area. Very interesting technique- way over my technical ability, though. Good thread!

 

[Intheshop]

Loaded OD neck @.314-15; in a factory .316 chamber/neck.

 

[Intheshop]

When I made the H&I sizer,the inner pin had it's ends squared,nicely done. Little concentric feed lines across the face. The finished bullet's GC is so precise that those concentric lines get transferred to the base of GC. Looks like an Olympic archery target.They,on average,are better than the best of JB bases.

 

[Intheshop]

Haha,when you start milling bases.....after awhile,that space on an as cast bullet,from the base to the first/lowest drive band starts to look really looong.

 

[fiver]

I doubt that pure lead will work soften.

correct.
it is at it's most elemental state and has nowhere to go.[up nor down]
your just making the lead move from one spot to another when you mash it or bash it about, gold, copper, and silver are pretty much the same way.
if you add to them, and then break down the alloy through mashing and bashing the gold and silver react like the lead.

copper hardens when you add stuff to it and needs to be annealed back to the original state of the alloy when you work it, it needs that because you change it [the molecular alignment] on a microscopic level.

 

[popper]

So, gc'd some today, non-annealed GC. 309 sizer, drive band 3085, GC is 309. So, GC opens up the neck and reduces neck tension? Neck spring back enough to compensate? Thoughts? Just have digital calipers but do see the difference.

 

[Ian]

Necks have an elastic limit of at least a full thousandth, often 3 or 4 depending on caliver and state of anneal. Half a thousandth bigger gas check isn't going to reduce the neck tension one iota.

 

[Intheshop]

OK,the only reason this is going in here is cause it isn't happening in/on other cals. or different bullets within this 7-08 chambering.

Further,the temporary cure is; take a height reading from top of seating stem to top of die(so it can goin back to the same place)....then clean the die with a bore mop on a pistol rod with some acetone or whatever cleaner dujour.

For some reason I'm getting a build up,then small denting in case shoulder and some on the neck of bullet lube from the seating op. The bullets are so easy to get straight when headed to the seating station..... so, I gradually start seating,then bout 1/2 way have to pull the case out and wipe off a little lube,then continue seating.

Obvious change would be less lube.... nothing would make me happier seeing as,I'm barely using any now. Only putting it in the little space between GC and the first/lowest drive band which,because of milled bases is getting smaller all the time.

Just don't know why it's only showing up on this bullet? And don't care why.... getting tired of jacking around with stem height,and being slowed down in general.... starting to get pi$$y. The GC's are deadnuts straight..... the nose size(which interfaces with seater stem) section is equally precise. It could be loaded case OD? but I like the 1 1/2 thous, chambered neck clearance so that ain't an option. Here's the deal though.... if this is showing up(and it is) during seating,WTF does that indicate could be happening to the lube at launch/ignition?

One reason "could" be the shape of the lube groove? This was happening BTW,before milling bases,so that change doesn't alter the problem one way or other?

 

[Ian]

Describe the type, brand, and setting of every reloading die in your process.

 

[fiver]

I'm not sure it's in the dies unless the neck tension is like 5thou or so, or if the seater is placing pressure on the neck while the bullet is being pressed into place.

I'd be more inclined to go with the lube being scraped more than extruded.

 

[Intheshop]

Used,not abused RCBS std bought on the cheap from 6BR forum classifieds.

What I need from a process standpoint to jump ahead a few steps is; a better tool for measuring the shoulder .400 datum to base. Using a ho built "nut" and dial calipres because I'm too lazy/stupid to build an indicator system.... which Ideally but,ain't gonna happen would be mounted in another Lyman turret press.

The nut works but is pretty hokie. I jam bullets as hard as can be done with field,loaded round ejection and magazine length as the criteria. To,keep cases smack dab back against boltface. Annealing every 2nd or 3rd firing. Shoulders blow fwd after 2 solid rounds..... this is where the nut thing starts to lose time. Just too dang figity,the direct reading dial indicator would be the doodoo.

 

[Intheshop]

Otherwise,happy.... 2 SXS Lyman Orange crushers. FL die in left,Lyman M in the right.

Partial FL size,watching shoulder. Then dink with M die. Swap out dies,seater in the left,Lee collet crimper right.

Set/check seater stem height,the built in roll crimp is set to juuuust get the top edge of case started back twds bullet. No real flare from M die,more like a hint of one... which is cleaned up by the roll in. Then it's over to the Lee "crimper" that is not locked down per say. I get the round up in it a twist in carefully meaning,it ain't just crunch the round up into a locked down setting.

I've got a bunch of sheet metal equipment,so forming metals is...... "fun and profitable" to quote those old matchbook covers. So like to feel how much "crimp" is being applied vs relying on pre set dimensions. Will say,these dies don't roll the case mouth in...... it gets squeezed in. Little more involved but that's pretty close.

 

[Intheshop]

I'd bet it's being scraped..... but that part of the process is pretty dialed in. That "AB" hybrid inline seater I made for 223 is stupid tight/accurate. And it doesn't do it?

Will just start putting less and less lube on this bullet.... ultimately,I'm wiping it off anyway? If that doesn't clean it up,will back the roll crimp out a tiny bit.

 

[Ian]

RCBS std

Lyman M

Partial FL size,watching shoulder. Then dink with M die. Swap out dies,seater in the left,Lee collet crimper right.

Set/check seater stem height,the built in roll crimp is set to juuuust get the top edge of case started back twds bullet. No real flare from M die,more like a hint of one... which is cleaned up by the roll in. Then it's over to the Lee "crimper" that is not locked down per say. I get the round up in it a twist in carefully meaning,it ain't just crunch the round up into a locked down setting.

Ah. M-die and FL die made for jax.

First, measure the inside of a resized neck (it will be about .008" smaller than a fired case) and hone the neck of the die until it only sizes about .003" smaller than your sized bullet diameter.

Next, throw that M-die spud in the garbage and make a new one with a straight spud .001" smaller than your sized bullet diameter, and taper it up at ~5° per side for the bellmouth. In use, bell the mouth only enough that the sized gas check seats flush with the mouth with finger pressure.

The combination of:

1. Minimally sizing your case necks,
2. Truing/expanding them ever so slightly with a PROPERLY SIZED spud (Lyman's spud sizes are totally wacked for cast bullets 99% of the time), and
3. Expanding the case mouth to a reasonable size that it doesn't become an elastic lipstick remover

will likely cure the lube scraping issue and a lot of other issues as well.

 

[Intheshop]

M die has a custom spud. They only take me a few minutes to make.

Got about .003" interference fit.