Subsonic expansion testing

[Missionary]

We have a 475 Linebaugh that gets a steady diet of 375-425 grainers of WW WFN at 900-1000 fps. Plenty of thwap for whatever we will see in our river bottoms.
We are long time friends with a Goodyear truck and tractor owner who set us aside a pallet of used wheel weights. All I do is cast him some .430 240 grainers while he tells me interesting service calls.
When the 475 goes out for real use it gets "telephone sheeting lead" plus just enough tin to flow well. 950 fps is the goal. 400 gr WFN. When they hit they do all I need done. Put through the shoulders have not had to ever get down to look for a red trail. Never have recovered one of those slugs either.
In all honesty any of our 40 some mags or 45 Colts could do the same with heavy WNF soft cast. My longest revolver shot is a whole 17 yards. River bottoms where I hunt are well traversed by corn crunchers.

 

[Jeff H]

All of this is vastly fascinating - "sub-sonic" (as the "kids" call what many handgun rounds have done as a matter of habit for over a century) and MASS and DIAMETER, combined to make an effective and efficient "stopper."

Many branches to the concept, but it all comes back to the same general tone; low velocity, lots of mass, and as much cross-sectional area as practical.

How hard (or soft) the mass is has more to do with it than preserving precious alloy-hardening materials and time. If the bullet gets bigger when it hits something, that may be good, it may be bad or it might not matter too much, depending on what you shoot. The bullet "gets bigger when it hits something" because the alloy is soft OR we MAKE the alloy soft so the bullet gets bigger when we hit something.

When the bullet "gets bigger," it uses up energy AND makes the bullet much less "aerodynamic." One benefit I see in sub-sonic expansion is that some of the energy of the bullet gets used up when it's IN the target. If the bullet gets OUT of the target, it has less energy to effect collateral damage. Being less "aerodynamic" it will lose remaining energy more quickly too.

All the mass we're going for in this case contributes to momentum - resistance to slowing down. Once the target is done-in, the bullet is a freelance flying object, and from my personal observations, these slow-moving bullets have a tendency to BOUNCE off of stuff, and the harder and less subject to deform that bullet is, the easier it bounces. If I can mitigate the potential for that to any degree, I want to exercise that option.

Again, I'm usually using such a load in close quarters, with valuable stuff around - to include ME.

@Spindrift said right up front that it was for "fun," but as examination of the idea continues, we see more and more significant useful function borne of our amusement.

 

[Bret4207]

Well no pointy sticks for me and never got into M Loaders, but just a deprived upbringing I guess.
But, along the lines of subsonic lead projectiles that may or may not expand, I thought about posting but decided it was a drift that might be to far. But then again maybe not a bridge to far after reading some of the postings here.
Spindrift started out testing rifle bullets with differing hollow points, subsonic, then the thread went into expansion with various hollow points compared to non hollow point bullets at various hardnesses of castings.
So here goes my drift.
A few years back I was interested in dropping below 1000 fps but increasing bullet weight which would also tend towards a softer alloy. Had been a hard core maxed out 44 mag guy for quite a while. Good reason up here, but not really pleasant.
So I started looking into the 50 SPL for a pistol and a 480 Rossi for a carbine. A friend has a 480 Rossi which I’ve been after, trying to pry it out of his hands, and he informed me that I could buy it when he passed.. well he’s 20 years younger than me.
After pricing have a revolver made in 50 SPL I decided the 480 Ruger I was shooting could be toned down a bit with 400 + grain bullets and that would achieve my goal with the obvious compromise’s. You know, ugly gun and a measly .475 diameter compared to.510.
Well you say buy a S&W 500. Well that and the 480 in a carbine got set aside for the far more practical 45-70 levergun.
So my interest has gone to 3 cartridges in 3 sixguns. First I still love the 44 mag, so with that in mind I have a 310 grain SSK mold that is great in the six guns but won’t cycle thru my Browning B92, just to long. So I’m starting to load that bullet into 44 SPL cases. Need to check first before I make this my standard that they won’t function in my 44 SPL pistols. Might have to crimp over he front band in 44 mag cases for safety. Would not be good to get a hot 44 -310 grain loaded in the SPL case in a Charter Arms. Looking for about 1000 plus fps in the 44.
Next I’m looking at the 45 AR with a 304 grain NOE at about 800 fps. Yeah but before you say your nuts to the 45 AR idea I’m using a 625 and a new 1950 - 22-4. The cartridge is going to have a COL of 1.320 which is one tenth long the anything I’ve seen for loads out there.
But the 480 ugly gun loaded down between 900 to 1100 with a 410 grain I’m thinking will stop most Mastodon’s running loose.
I played a little with the 45 AR and the 44 in the SPL cases but this is just in the infancy at this point, but.
Won’t need a HP with these diameter’s, but will be looking at the 40-1 and 30-1 powder coated so I hope this will fit the fun side, and might be practical as well..
All 3 of these cartridges will be used with lighter bullets in the main, like a 280 in the 44, 255 or lighter in the 45, but the 480 the suggested loading above will probably be the “one”.

I don't think you're nuts at all with AR. In a modern gun with modern brass and going long, yeah, it's doable for sure. I mean, heck, they loaded the 38 S+W with a 200 gr FN instead of the 130 and shot them in little light frame guns and it worked fine. 70 grs in a 38 is a lot more than 49 or 50 grs in a 45!

 

[Bret4207]

We have a 475 Linebaugh that gets a steady diet of 375-425 grainers of WW WFN at 900-1000 fps. Plenty of thwap for whatever we will see in our river bottoms.
We are long time friends with a Goodyear truck and tractor owner who set us aside a pallet of used wheel weights. All I do is cast him some .430 240 grainers while he tells me interesting service calls.
When the 475 goes out for real use it gets "telephone sheeting lead" plus just enough tin to flow well. 950 fps is the goal. 400 gr WFN. When they hit they do all I need done. Put through the shoulders have not had to ever get down to look for a red trail. Never have recovered one of those slugs either.
In all honesty any of our 40 some mags or 45 Colts could do the same with heavy WNF soft cast. My longest revolver shot is a whole 17 yards. River bottoms where I hunt are well traversed by corn crunchers.

"...a pallet of used wheel weights." The mind boggles........

 

[Missionary]

The best part is those are 18 wheeler and tractor weights. Big hunkers. About 50 % fewer clips to mess with.
When I need another 55 # box I go for a ride on the 71 BMW (R75/5) and divide the weight into the saddlebags.

 

[Bret4207]

The best part is those are 18 wheeler and tractor weights. Big hunkers. About 50 % fewer clips to mess with.
When I need another 55 # box I go for a ride on the 71 BMW (R75/5) and divide the weight into the saddlebags.

Oh yeah! I know those WW's!!! Used to find them when I was working trucks. The only thing stopping me from peeling off a few bigun's was good manners, proper upbringing and a fair sense of right and wrong. Those huge monsters sure were tempting though!

 

[Jeff H]

Any of the rest you ever come to a screeching halt in the breakdown lane, while doing 80 mph through one of the Nation's major cities....

...because you spotted a truck wheel-weight lying there?

People think I"m nuts, but I'm really OK with that.


I always hated driving through or in Detroit, but looking back, I had some fun with it.

 

[Kevin Stenberg]

All of the reasoning so far was why I switched over my 450 BM to the lowly 44.

 

[Bret4207]

Any of the rest you ever come to a screeching halt in the breakdown lane, while doing 80 mph through one of the Nation's major cities....

...because you spotted a truck wheel-weight lying there?

People think I"m nuts, but I'm really OK with that.


I always hated driving through or in Detroit, but looking back, I had some fun with it.

HAR! Not on an urban roadway, but out in the sticks for sure!!!

 

[Jeff H]

All of the reasoning so far was why I switched over my 450 BM to the lowly 44.

Kevin, I know what the 450 BM IS, but am not familiar with the subtleties its users find most appealing. Other than it's fatter, heavier and faster than the 44 Mag.,...

Are you using it in the context of the thread (lobbing lead bricks at pedestrian velocities) or simply side-stepping all the efforts of making a bigger hole with a smaller bullet by simply making a bigger hole to begin with?

 

[Missionary]

Another good reason to ride a 2 wheeler... easy to make those stops, turn around and rescue those sad unattached balancers.

 

[Jeff H]

Another good reason to ride a 2 wheeler... easy to make those stops, turn around and rescue those sad unattached balancers.

And you don't have to listen to three cranky passenger complain the entire rest of the trip about how you scared the crap out of them.

 

[Ian]

I make my passengers bail out to grab wheelweights at intersections.

The BM has a 20" twist typically and is unsuitable for launching heavy-for-caliber bullets extremely slowly. For that, you want the .458 SOCOM.

 

[Jeff H]

I make my passengers bail out to grab wheelweights at intersections.

The BM has a 20" twist typically and is unsuitable for launching heavy-for-caliber bullets extremely slowly. For that, you want the .458 SOCOM.

My passengers were always mechanical designers and mechanical engineers.

It would have taken too long to explain what a wheel weight was, so the knew what to pick up.

 

[Ian]

My passengers were always mechanical designers and mechanical engineers.

It would have taken too long to explain what a wheel weight was, so the knew what to pick up.

So true!

 

[fiver]

a few 8X12 black and white glossy paper photo's with notes on the back might have helped.

 

[Brad]

Is that like 8x10 color glossies with circles and arrows and writing on the back?

You littering?

 

[Missionary]

Those must be the same fellers the Army hired for tank development back in the 60s.

 

[fiver]

yep same thing, just engineered up some.

 

[L Ross]

I only dash through traffic on Interstates for chain binders. I will get out at an urban red light for any wheel weight bigger than a half ounce though.