What I should have invested in!

[KHornet]

I would be very skeptical about hauling much over
15-20 lb of powder in a private aircraft. The FAA
has so many hidden rules that could ground you
if you were caught.

Paul

 

[KeithB]

I think this is one case where paying a commercial shipper to get it to my door safely would be worth the extra cost.

 

[462]

The way I look at it, what with the local almost always non-availability of primers and powders, or the 150-mile round trip to the closest city that just might possibly maybe have a half decent selection of the stuff I use, I gladly pay the Powder Valley $10 shipping and $20 Haz-Mat fees.

 

[Pistolero]

Yeah, 462, putting it in that perspective.....it may not pay me to even drive down there, even
though, if I were to keep speeds reasonable I could get about 40 mpg. Still would be most
of a day and maybe break even.

Bill

 

[Ian]

I wondered myself about how legal it was flying 200 lbs of powder and primers across several state lines in a private plane, but figured the pilot with his particular background ought to know, or know enough of the right people to get away with it.

 

[Pistolero]

Not a fight I would want to pick. Either with LE or the laws of physics.

I have flown with guns in my own aircraft many times, no issues, but not with large
quantities of ....shall we say ORM-D materials. Probably not any more a problem than in
your car.....which may be questionable, too. And iffy explaining to curious
LE. I suspect that any laws apply to ICC regulated carriers, not private individuals, but
not really sure.
If I was in a jam, my FBI buddy would be my first phone call, for sure, but only to give a reference
if there was a misunderstanding with LE. I don't think any of it would be illegal, but it
might be a bad idea. Kinda like loading a bunch of 5 gallon gas cans in the back of your
car. Probably not illegal, but in an accident, very bad things could happen. Propellants
are pretty flammable, gasoline is probably more explosive.

Bill

 

[Bret4207]

IIRC, and I've been retired for over 10 years now, with any HazMat private or commercial isn't an issue, IOW- it doesn't matter if you aren't in a tractor trailer crossing state lines. It's all about quantity. ORM-D, Small Quantity Exceptions and such are why we can legally haul propane tanks and gas cans around. The form a substance is in matters too. Suffice it to say, USPS/UPS/FedEx, etc. have a battery of employees (many former DOT Inspectors like myself) that do nothing but keep up on the near daily changes in the various regulations involved in shipping "stuff", HazMat or not.

Bill, I've had calls from friends like you speak of with your FBI bud. My answer usually has been, "If you think it's bad enough to call me, then hang up and call a lawyer!" You might also want to keep in mind that "I'm gonna call my pal in the FBI" is going to be seen as a challenge 100% of the time, and the freakin' FBI has no knowledge or jursdiction over local matters, and when they meddle they invariably make things worse. Just my 2 cents.

 

[RBHarter]

I questioned this while I worked for a DoD contractor . I went to our QC and shipping as well as the goobermental staff . The unrefined overview was that in a private aircraft without more than nominal flight crew and there was no conflict with departure or arrival point law or ordinance that nominal transportation quantities would be acceptable . Nominal quantity falls under the 32# reference found in the NFPA rules for storage ............. However it is in private transportation , so the rules kinda go out the window with any quantity of 1.1,1.2,1.3 and 1000 lb of 1.4 must be placarded in commercial transportation . Not required in a private vehicle ..... Kind of a catch 22 in a U-Haul . I believe that in any case the authority would have to prove or have reasonable suspicion of intent .

6 Sea Bags or several foot locker looking suit cases might be grounds to make a guy miserable . Four 8# jugs in a couple of gym bags and a 20 mm can would probably not even get a second look depending on the departure point .

 

[Bret4207]

I questioned this while I worked for a DoD contractor . I went to our QC and shipping as well as the goobermental staff . The unrefined overview was that in a private aircraft without more than nominal flight crew and there was no conflict with departure or arrival point law or ordinance that nominal transportation quantities would be acceptable . Nominal quantity falls under the 32# reference found in the NFPA rules for storage ............. However it is in private transportation , so the rules kinda go out the window with any quantity of 1.1,1.2,1.3 and 1000 lb of 1.4 must be placarded in commercial transportation . Not required in a private vehicle ..... Kind of a catch 22 in a U-Haul . I believe that in any case the authority would have to prove or have reasonable suspicion of intent .

6 Sea Bags or several foot locker looking suit cases might be grounds to make a guy miserable . Four 8# jugs in a couple of gym bags and a 20 mm can would probably not even get a second look depending on the departure point .

If you have enough to require a placard in a CMV, then you have enough to require a placard, HazMat endorsement, etc. on your license, etc in a private vehicle. What gets you out of that in a few very limited cases is what are called "exceptions". NFPA and HazMat regs are 2 different things and come from 2 entirely different angles. "Storage" is one thing, "transportation" in the public spaces is another. I know parts of the books we used to use had references to railroad, ship and aircraft. We never got into it, but I put money on the rules running pretty similar in airplanes, private or commercial, as with motor vehicles on highways.

In the end, if you don't get caught it's not an issue...in many peoples minds at least.

 

[RBHarter]

The actual phrase , which I missed , is "when placed in commerce" .
1.3 applies to mass fire hazard , smokeless powder fills that at least it did when I was involved in that .
1.2 is a projection or mass fragmentation , explosive howie shells , "pineapple" grenades etc .
1.1 is mass detonation , TNT , HBX , RDX , non propellant BP .
1.4 is loaded and canned small arms , inert projectile 20mm and smaller .
Legally under DOT commerce laws an 8oz of trail boss needs placards , which the shipper is required to provide , to take it home from the retailer . Primers are a vague place ours are 1.2 as they aren't overly sensitive but tend to spray around , larger primers , because of the volume of compound involved get moved up to 1.1 . Except that the buyer isn't placing it in commerce because they are neither paying nor being paid to transport the said mat'l .
22 yr in shipping of said items , some 275 hours of haz-mat classes , level 3 tech ........ Good times .

From enforcement , while it could tie a guy up and be a hassle the pressure would be on the LEO to prove the mat'l was in commerce and or malicious intent .

 

[Ian]

Well we drifted this one off the rails! Good read though. Our small group almost has one of everybody, and not just anyone can quote chapter and verse from dense and mysterious gobbermint regs off the top of their head.

 

[RBHarter]

A couple of years and I'll probably be completely out of date ......

 

[Ian]

Won't we all.

 

[Pistolero]

Bret, the ONLY thing I would ask of my FBI friend is a friendly call to mention that "he's actually not very likely
to be a terrorist, I have known him for 30 years", nothing more. No expectation of any special treatment other
than a character reference to perhaps clarify an ambigous situation where they might be wondering what
the heck is going on with 4 or 5 8lb containers of powder. No chance I would call with the expection of
"fixing a ticket" or any special treatment. Just some disambiguation.

Bill

 

[462]

I'm so out of date, my oldest grandson, who was about 12 at the time, said I was an overdue book. He'll be 21 tomorrow, and I know his view hasn't changed one iota. He was more right than he thought.

Last evening, I took a picture with my phone, and today I added the local police department's non-emergency phone number to its contact list.

 

[Hawk]

A couple of years and I'll probably be completely out of date ......

I hop my expiration date is far it the future!

 

[Bret4207]

The actual phrase , which I missed , is "when placed in commerce" .
1.3 applies to mass fire hazard , smokeless powder fills that at least it did when I was involved in that .
1.2 is a projection or mass fragmentation , explosive howie shells , "pineapple" grenades etc .
1.1 is mass detonation , TNT , HBX , RDX , non propellant BP .
1.4 is loaded and canned small arms , inert projectile 20mm and smaller .
Legally under DOT commerce laws an 8oz of trail boss needs placards , which the shipper is required to provide , to take it home from the retailer . Primers are a vague place ours are 1.2 as they aren't overly sensitive but tend to spray around , larger primers , because of the volume of compound involved get moved up to 1.1 . Except that the buyer isn't placing it in commerce because they are neither paying nor being paid to transport the said mat'l .
22 yr in shipping of said items , some 275 hours of haz-mat classes , level 3 tech ........ Good times .

From enforcement , while it could tie a guy up and be a hassle the pressure would be on the LEO to prove the mat'l was in commerce and or malicious intent .

HazMat laws are not "commerce" laws. They apply to transportation of HazMat whether in commerce or not. I've been out of it too long to try to quote it all, but there are specific exceptions on quantity and when a product in certain amounts can become a "consumer commodity". That's where the end user can go pickup a certain amount of a HazMat and go happily and lawfully down the road or probably in the air. Even the Feds aren't nuts enough to think they can control Grampa and his propane grill tanks. Regardless of commerce or not, you simply can't transport certain stuff or larger quantities of common items (gasoline for instance) whether in commerce or not without following the laws and expect not to run into trouble eventually. 6 or 7 years on the enforcement end, several months worth of classes and certificates, glad I'm out of it.

 

[Bret4207]

Bret, the ONLY thing I would ask of my FBI friend is a friendly call to mention that "he's actually not very likely
to be a terrorist, I have known him for 30 years", nothing more. No expectation of any special treatment other
than a character reference to perhaps clarify an ambigous situation where they might be wondering what
the heck is going on with 4 or 5 8lb containers of powder. No chance I would call with the expection of
"fixing a ticket" or any special treatment. Just some disambiguation.

Bill

I understand that Bill. I'm just giving you the reality. #1, how does the LEO on your end know it's actually an FBI agent? and #2 it's going to be seen as a challenge regardless of your intentions. #3, think about the FBI lately and tell me they have such a sterling reputation and #4 if the cop ahs dealt with the FBI like I have and seen the mess of things they make he isn't going to be any too impressed. Just giving you the realities.

And if you ever deal with the FBI and tried calling a local/state LEO to verify your status as an all round good guy, the LEO would be told in no uncertain terms to FO and mind his own business, if they would even take the call. Seen that first hand. Feds don't give a rats backside about local LE, it's seen as a challenge 100% of the time. You see the pattern here?

 

[Intheshop]

Well,I certainly do,haha.