Winchester 231Ball

[Mitty38]

I was using HP 38 for my .380.My only good load for the LCP was 3.3 under 90 grain Lead PC. Matched my factory SD ammo POI to a T.
I dropped my last grain of hp 38.
Also down to About 4 oz of H Universal.
Now all my Universal loads. I have Red dot loads to replace them. With plenty of Red Dot to last.
Any how was checking burn rates. Most charts put HP 38 either on the same line or right next to 231ball.

I sold a couple things, then took the money to a big box to buy loading supplies. So they did not have any Universal, Unique, or Hp38 which was what I went looking for.
I purchase a couple pounds of 231 ball, and some Cheddite primers Then went home.
Well the rest of the money came in for what I sold. So went to another store and they had no HP38, but had one 4 pounder in stock of 231 for $110 Figured at today's prices and and powder availability I had better grab it. I probably paid too much but damage done.
So now I have 6lbs of the stuff I bought on a hunch. Have not Idea of what I have.
So to get to the point.
Besides wondering, is it close enough to HP 38 to get similar results for my 380.
I am looking for any applications, experiences, comparisons, Experiences with, history of, or opinions on this powder. Especially with 380, 38spcl, 9mm, and 45 ACP. Before I crack the keg, so to speak.

 

[Jeff H]

I used W231 for years and eventually got low so started looking to replace it - found none.

Third Generation Shooting Supply had HP38 and it was a good price. I'd read several times it was the same as W231, so I figured it should be OK - and it's what I could find.

With MY loads, HP38 works grain for grain, just as W231 did. I've used it in the 44 Special, 45 ACP, 38 Spl, 357 Mag, 222 Remington - all cast loads.

 

[creosote]

They are the same.
HP-38 ---231 same
H-110 ---w 296 same
A few others, I forget. Its late for a tired brain.

 

[Mitty38]

Thanks.
I am also thinking of developing a 45 ACP load with this as I have only worked one up with longshot, so far and I am planning, on saving the longshot for 20 guage loads.

 

[CZ93X62]

5.4 grains of WW-231 acts indentically to 5.0 x Bullseye with GI hardball 230 FMJRN or Lyman #452374. That's in my pistols and revolvers for close +/- 40 years. HP-38 and WW-231 are identical, both made by St. Marks. WW-748 is awfully close to H-335, and WW-760 and H-414 are likewise.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I used ta love 231 When I couldnt get Bullseye in the 45 Target loads. Later it was a dandy in 380 but after I tried Power Pistol I left the 231 at the curb!
Better velocity with out the pressure signs. PP is just gentler. Tenth or two heavy is diff between too much and just right with 231. NOT so with PP.

CW

 

[Mitty38]

I used ta love 231 When I couldnt get Bullseye in the 45 Target loads. Later it was a dandy in 380 but after I tried Power Pistol I left the 231 at the curb!
Better velocity with out the pressure signs. PP is just gentler. Tenth or two heavy is diff between too much and just right with 231. NOT so with PP.

CW

With my 380 loads I had to hand weigh each charge with HP38 to get accurate rounds. Ye it was very "charge rate" sensitive for lack of a better term.
But it was very accurate when I did get it right.
Well I am kinda stuck with 231 for the next few thousand rounds. So may as well use it for at least two calibers.
I rarely don't mind hand weighing,each drop, on 300 pistol rounds at a time. May be an issue later on, but for now with good balance, and electronic scales, it's kind of a relaxing process, Especialy with the right kind of music in the background.
I do have 1 lb of Pp but saving that for when things run low again. Will probably build a load for the 45 with Pp, W231,and Red Dot yet. Just so I have options.

 

[glassparman]

What everyone else said. HP-38 and Win 231 come from the same vats. Or so I have been told by Hodgdon folks.

I have used them interchangeably in my .45 Auto.

 

[Winelover]

W231 is a lot closer to Unique on the burn chart than Bullseye. So much so, that some reloaders treat it as a direct replacement that meters better, than Unique.

 

[Mitty38]

Never used bulseye, it's always been like unobtainium around here, even before the "shortages".

Interesting about Unique.
From my Lyman manual. For 200 gr lswc
W231 5.4gr 769fps , 6.1 885fps
Unique 6gr 717fps , 7.5gr 913fps

Unique shows like Five steps slower on one card I have and 4 steps slower on another.
If they are using 6 or 6.1 grain. Maybe that might give them a close POI without getting dangerous. That has to be well under 90 feet per second difference.
Of course there are other weights and bullets so maybe a few combinations could take an identical weight?
Got me curious now, I am going to have to compare load data in some of my 38 special loads. Since I have a lot of those developed.
Of course I would have to go by feel, group and point of impact for comparison. As I currently do not have a chronograph.
Would be interesting to see with what weight projectiles, others are using direct replacement between the two in 45 ACP and try that out.
Maybe try with some direct grain to grain comparisons on some of my Universal loads that fall within the W231 load data?
If I could use it as a direct replacement for universal, as well as HP38 for some my loads. I will go buy some more!

 

[300BLK]

Go to Hodgdon's website, choose 38Spl or 45ACP, choose HP38, 231, and Universal and your bullet weights. You will see identical powder charge, velocity and pressure for 231 vs HP 38. Universal is more akin to Unique.

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

 

[Mitty38]

Go to Hodgdon's website, choose 38Spl or 45ACP, choose HP38, 231, and Universal and your bullet weights. You will see identical powder charge, velocity and pressure for 231 vs HP 38. Universal is more akin to Unique.

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

I have been using Universal and Unique, interchangeably for a few years now.

Just the suggestion that was made, that I could replace them in some of my loads and use the same weight is intriguing.
Especially now that I am almost out of both and can't find them. At least at a price I can afford.

 

[Mitty38]

According to the Hodgden data.
With the 45 acp 230 grain there are a couple spots where 231 and Universal could very well use the same charge safely, with roughly the same results.
In fact been checking out other powders.
If you keep with in 5 steps or so in the burn rate list, and find just the right bullet weight. There is often at least one place where the load data and velocity crosses.And the difference in results could be immeasurable.

The only thing that would be a concern is dropping the load a bit when building up to be ware of pressure.
Just kind of curious if actual measured burn rate for each powder is listed somewhere. Not in a step chart but in ft per second or something.

This could be a very expensive rabbit hole to go down. Buying a pound of each kind of powder, A gun in every caliber, 2 bullet moulds for each.
Bet if I had 29 years or so, and about 50 grand. I could compile a book of all the load data sweet spot
gun powder weight crossover anomalies.
Could you imagine a book that has sections titled as such..."Twin loads in 45 ACP with same weights of 231 and Unique ". Then a section like that for all the 850 common domestic calibers. With all the different powder data crossovers.
Powder must have varying pressure curves that intersect with other powders curves, in spite of burn rate, for this to be possible.

I think besides drifting off my own page. I just gave myself a headache.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

Due to some weird geographical oddity, Bullseye was unavailable locally when I started reloading decades ago. As a result, I used a lot of WW231. That worked fine, never had an issue. Then WW231 became rare, and HP-38 was my go-to powder. At the time, HP-38 and WW231 were widely considered interchangeable and identical. (because they are in fact the same powder packaged in different containers). I’ve never seen any credible evidence that WW231 and HP-38 are different powders, and my own experience supports that 100%.

I still keep a little HP-38 on hand and it’s useful but I’ve become very fond of Bullseye. The economy of Bullseye is attractive, and it works beautifully. However, over the long run, I’ve burned more HP-38 / WW231.

 

[RicinYakima]

In the PNW in the last 50 years Bullseye (really all Hercules powders) were and are common, as are CCI products. Winchester powders and primers are always scarce, except for shotgun stuff.

 

[Tomme boy]

Check the lot #'s. I got some hp38 and 231 with the same lot #. I mix them together and make one large lot to be consistent.

 

[Mitty38]

Check the lot #'s. I got some hp38 and 231 with the same lot #. I mix them together and make one large lot to be consistent.

Ye they must make pretty big lots.

My HP -38 was years old, and down to 2 grain when I finally ran out, so just dumped it outside.

This Winchester 231 that has came in to our area was the same lot# at 2 different stores.
Figure they must use the same wholesale, or something. So I ended up with 6 lbs of the same lot.

 

[fiver]

they just make huge lots of powder, dump it on the market and expect it to last till the next time they make it.

231 works well in everything.
9mm 45 acp 38 special 44 mag 45 colt.
it's the only handgun powder my dad ever bought.

 

[Outpost75]

WST replaced 452AA when it was discontinued in 1991. My powder of choice for .38 Special and .45 ACP target wadcutter. Volume for volume replacement for Bullseye in Star machine already set up for safe charge of BE. Just refill powder hopper and continue.

 

[RBHarter]

Well a rail car will carry 120-160,000 lbs in a useful space of 114" wide 120" tall and 550" long round numbers 4000 cuft roughly 3.5 gross truckloads . About 108,000 lb net explosive weight . Hogdon had something like 125 rail cars of 4831 to sell of when WWII ended and the demand for 20mm canon ammo evaporated in a few hours . It took at least 30 years to get it all packaged , I have a can marked "repacked WWII surplus July 1974" . So yeah powder can be made in pretty big lots .
I doubt anything for ordinance is manufactured at that scale anymore.