Winchester 231Ball
- Thread starter Mitty38
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- 231 ball winchester
Glaciers
Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Yeah I’m working 231 in to some of my pistol cartridges and picked up a couple pounds in Sourthern Oregon for my winter stash. Bullseye up north here was just never available. Couple years ago I found some BE at Sportsman‘s and bought a pound. Tried it and really like it but went back and out of stock. Managed to get a sealed pound from a friend and a half pound from a trusted friend. Haven’t found any down in Oregon but did come up with some Titegroup and from what I here that’s a good substitute for BE. Same application anyway. Haven’t tried any yet but hoping it‘s similar.
Joshua
Taco Aficionado/Salish Sea Pirate/Part-Time Dragon
Just a bit of info to add to this conversation, Ramshot Zip isn’t an identical copy of 231/HP38, it is however very similar in grain size and shape, and acts similar to 231/HP38. All three are flattened ball, double base powders, that land very close on the burn chart. I mention it only because as we all know shortages happen, and it’s nice to know what powders look and act similar to each other.
CWLONGSHOT
Well-Known Member
PLEASE!
DO NOT try and match up powders by looks alone!!!!!
DO NOT try and match up powders by looks alone!!!!!
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
Why not? 231 looks real close to Red Dot.
Figure Since Red Dot Crammed in By compression works well in my 9mm.
I was getting ready to just fill some cases to the top with W231,cram it down with the bullet. Shove a magazine full in my P80 and see what happens.
What could go possibly go wrong.?
____NOT!!!! .
..good point CWlongshot.
I have confidence Joshua would be smart enough to check load data. But you never know who might be Google Searching and read these posts, they might not have the experience to intersperse his post in proper context.
Figure Since Red Dot Crammed in By compression works well in my 9mm.
I was getting ready to just fill some cases to the top with W231,cram it down with the bullet. Shove a magazine full in my P80 and see what happens.
What could go possibly go wrong.?
____NOT!!!! .
..good point CWlongshot.
I have confidence Joshua would be smart enough to check load data. But you never know who might be Google Searching and read these posts, they might not have the experience to intersperse his post in proper context.
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Joshua
Taco Aficionado/Salish Sea Pirate/Part-Time Dragon
Hmm. I work for a very large organization where “should” and “shall” have very very different meanings when used in technical documents. One word is a command, the other is guidance, very different concepts.
“Same” and “similar” are also two very different words. Ramshot Zip is a powder that acts similar to 231/HP38, and as stated above the reason that it does this is because it has a similar shape, size, and chemical composition. But, it is not the “same” powder.
We talk about similar powders all the time. This discussion is no different.
The people who don’t understand the difference between “same” and “similar”, are the same people who refuse to read manuals, and don’t understand why you can’t use the “same” charge weight of powder with both a 150 grain bullet and a 220 grain bullet.
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CWLONGSHOT
Well-Known Member
Not ment to scold Josh Simply 100% meant as reminder for any inexperienced folks casually reading comments they may take as gospel, about looking @ powders for ID/ burn rate/ usage.
CW
CW
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Never ever trust anything on the internet. Cross check with a minimum of three published texts. FWIW
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
Ye kinda gets me back to my rambling earlier. Something is clicking on my head but having trouble vocalizing my realizations.
Let me try...
The cross over of power curves, and pressure curvers thing. Even crossover of velocity curves in one load compared to another.
Seams bullet weight can make a huge difference in pressures. I was looking at my Lyman Book, Sierra book, Hodgden info, and the Lee "compilation of other people's loading info" loading manual.
It's just amazing that sometimes even bullet type, at same weight, can make some powders act differently while others show no change.
Even the individual gun used can make something work that is a not , normally kosher. Making something that for most people using that caliber, a failed attempt. But for you a sweet load.
Some times things just match up and work, that just do not seem likely. The results would be hard to figure, unless you had an abacus, chalk board, all the variable info, and a ton at a time.
Yet simple working up of a load, with baby steps, and a carful inspection of spent cases and primers, will get us there sometimes unwittingly, some times with carful extrapolation, or following intuition.
Two powders that, are not usually interposed, can be interposed. With a certain weight bullet. Or maybe different COL.
So many variables for to play with. Kinda makes this whole thing fun, does it not.
Guess that's why we keep giving volumes of cash, for those volumes of loading info.
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fiver
Well-Known Member
what's weird is you see those parallels and then they suddenly start to wander off as things get heavier or the case volume changes.
you just can never ever say always and you also can't say never.
stuff like probably and should or IME have to be used in our world.
we 'know' we can predict, and we can see patterns,,, but we really don't know, heck they don't either.
why didn't stuff like W-231, AA-5&7 ever get used as a shot shell powder?
bulls-eye did, titegroup is, red-dot, am select, unique, 2400, h-110 blah,blah,blah all were/are used in shot shelll loads.
you just can never ever say always and you also can't say never.
stuff like probably and should or IME have to be used in our world.
we 'know' we can predict, and we can see patterns,,, but we really don't know, heck they don't either.
why didn't stuff like W-231, AA-5&7 ever get used as a shot shell powder?
bulls-eye did, titegroup is, red-dot, am select, unique, 2400, h-110 blah,blah,blah all were/are used in shot shelll loads.
This.
I have a lifelong friend that finally decided to get into reloading, and I helped set him up to load 45 acp, 9mm, etc...
He asked about powder, and I told him to start with 231, as it would work in all of his chosen calibers, and was very efficient.
I gave him a pound of it to kickstart him, and so far he's been happy.
Thumbcocker
Active Member
231 and the Lyman 452460 200 grain swc have worked well for me.
358156 hp
At large, whereabouts unknown.
Absolutely. Internet advice is best relegated to being a suggestion as to where one can look for the answers to their questions. One big problem I had with TOS was the number of people who would beat you up to just give them the number. There is no number in this game. Everything requires research and validation.
I saw nothing wrong with what Josh was saying.
Using it in the 222 Remington with cast 50 and 55 grain bullets, it's hard to tell the difference accuracy wise, between it an Unique (different charge-weights, of course) and is just as good for small game and varmints/vermin. Very economical.
W231/HP38 is what I use for "cat-sneeze" loads, in very small doses. Ironically, the same charge-weights work for the 222 and the 357 in this application, but the charge-weight is VERY dependent upon the individual rifle bore. It took a significant increase in the 77/357, over what the Rossi 92 and Contender/MGM barrels to get bullets out the muzzle. With the Ruger, the minimum charge surpassed the noise-level desired and wasn't worth the effort. I'm talking somewhere in the neighborhood of 450 fps from a carbine (16" - 18.5") barrel.
Very soft, TL'd bullets in the 170 to 180-grain range provide some effective "thump" at spittin' distance on varmints/vermin and tend not to over-penetrate, which is important up close to buildings and such.
W231/HP38 is what I use for "cat-sneeze" loads, in very small doses. Ironically, the same charge-weights work for the 222 and the 357 in this application, but the charge-weight is VERY dependent upon the individual rifle bore. It took a significant increase in the 77/357, over what the Rossi 92 and Contender/MGM barrels to get bullets out the muzzle. With the Ruger, the minimum charge surpassed the noise-level desired and wasn't worth the effort. I'm talking somewhere in the neighborhood of 450 fps from a carbine (16" - 18.5") barrel.
Very soft, TL'd bullets in the 170 to 180-grain range provide some effective "thump" at spittin' distance on varmints/vermin and tend not to over-penetrate, which is important up close to buildings and such.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
Yes they do, in pistols and revolvers. Dittoes for the various H&G #68 plagiarisms as well, prompt these along at 800 FPS for paper-punching or 900 FPS for more serious taskings--like 'Making Major' for old-school IPSC venues.
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
102 grain lee bullet in 380 was simple. All my sources Basically crossed at 2.9 grain. With other the high or low loads listed as .2 grain from that. Plus my measure dropped at either 2.9, or just out of range for the tightest spec.
So just loaded up 5 with 2.9, bingo. More accurate in the Bersa and the LCP then the Ruger factory 90 grain.
The slick side powder coated 90 grain Fiver sent me a while back.
Just upped to the next drop at 3.3 grain(same I was using for HP38) Spot on.
Developed 2 loads with 15 loaded cartridges.
Can't wait to start working it up in the 45.
After I get some #68 lee clones cast and coated.
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