Wonder why the 9 Luger is so popular!

[Winelover]

BTW, I don't own a 45 ACP and probably never will. It wasn't till this year, I actually shot one. Rick brought his Springfield over and we commenced killing paper with it and my new 9 mm Sig P320 RX Compact. Paper couldn't tell the difference. Rick did have to load twice as often, though.

 

[Winelover]

I don't care what the statistics say. Real world experience shows me the 9mm is about the same as a 38 Spec overall.

Velocities show otherwise. The 9 mm is just about a 100 fps slower then the 357 for the same bullet weight, and couple hundred above the 38 Special.

 

[Rick]

Simple unavoidable fact . . . Stopping power comes from momentum, bullet weight is worth 4 times velocity in calculating momentum. Then add bullet nose shape in most bullets used in both calibers to momentum in comparing the 9 and 45 and there is no comparison in stopping power. Unless of course the adversary is paper. I agree completely, paper couldn't care less.

 

[Winelover]

Here comes the naysayers.

 

[Brad]

Can't you guys save this discussion for Christmas dinner?

There is so much "research" out there regarding stopping power, etc that it is hard to wade thru it all. This is a topic which has been, and will be, debated for an eternity.

 

[Rick]

Here comes the naysayers.

Seems we agree completely on that.
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[Brad]

 

[Winelover]

This is a topic which has been, and will be, debated for an eternity.

Probably since the 45 ACP arrived. Just keep in mind, the 9 mm came out before it did.

 

[Rick]

This is a topic which has been, and will be, debated for an eternity.

I will agree with john completely that the 9 is equal to the 45 in stopping power as soon as he starts shooting 200 grain bullets at a minimum 850 fps out of any of his 9mm's.
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[Winelover]

Can't you guys save this discussion for Christmas dinner?

We had this discussion at Thanksgiving and I even presented the article.....to no avail.

 

[Rick]

We had this discussion at Thanksgiving and I even presented the article.....to no avail.

Of course not . . . Some editor tells a gun scribe to write an article singing the praises of the 9 and suddenly that article is gospel. Really?

How many articles have been written saying the exact opposite?

Now use reality and science, the science is that momentum is the single biggest factor in stopping power, the science (the math in calculating momentum) is that bullet weight is worth 4 times velocity. Also include the reality that a more pointed bullet will not disrupt nearly as much tissue as a much wider meplat not to mention a wider meplat that also has the momentum to penetrate deeply.
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[Winelover]

I will agree with john completely that the 9 is equal to the 45 in stopping power as soon as he starts shooting 200 grain bullets at a minimum 850 fps out of any of his 9mm's.
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Now were going off on tangents.

More bullet mass translates to more recoil.....not necessarily, more energy. After all Energy equals Mass times velocity squared. Meaning, that you can get more energy with less mass if the velocity is increased. Already been determined that 9 mm is much faster than 45 ACP.

 

[Winelover]

Oh.....now you want to get into meplats. The article mentioned that the premium bullet designers can get the 9 mm bullet to meet and even exceed the expansion of the 45 ACP. So, now you have a faster bullet making a bigger hole.......if in fact you ever read the article.

 

[Rick]

Now were going off on tangents.

More bullet mass translates to more recoil.....not necessarily, more energy. After all Energy equals Mass times velocity squared. Meaning, that you can get more energy with less mass if the velocity is increased. Already been determined that 9 mm is much faster than 45 ACP.

Tangent? hehe . . . You answered it yourself with Energy equals Mass times velocity squared. Exactly right and exactly what I said in bullet weight is worth 4 times velocity. So now that we are in complete agreement please show me your 9 that is shooting a 100 gr bullet at a minimum of 3,400 feet per second which is what it would take to equal the momentum. I really truly would love to see that. From a good distance of course.
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[Winelover]

I'm willing to bet that there have been more fatalities attributed to the 9 mm than the 45 ACP. After all, it is the choice of NATO, most police departments as well as the street gangs.

 

[Rick]

I'm willing to bet that there have been more fatalities attributed to the 9 mm than the 45 ACP. After all, it is the choice of NATO, most police departments as well as the street gangs.

Grabbing at straws now huh? Don't bet the bulk of your money on that, the 45 was the U.S. military side arm for more decades than the 9 has been for years. I spoke with one of the LAPD officers that had a lot to do with that department going to the 9 and replacing the 38 spl revolver. They considered it the power equivalent of the 38 but offered more rounds. In addition the reason they didn't go with the 45 at the time was simply they didn't want the cops hurting anybody. As a side note today the LAPD can with their own dime use the 45 but the 9 is still the official side arm.

But I concede, you simply must be right, after all the street gangs (ballisticians all) favor the 9.
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[RKJ]

I was one of those that thought the only good calibers were ones that started with a 4, if it didn't start with a 4 it wasn't worth having . I read the comparisons and thought, nope I'm perfectly happy with the 45 and don't need anything less. But after getting that HP, I've changed my thinking. I live in small town rural Missouri so the chances of me getting into a firefight are pretty slim, but I feel just as secure with 14 rounds of 9mm as I do with 8 or 9 rounds (Officers or GM with Wilson mags).

 

[Rick]

I was one of those that thought the only good calibers were ones that started with a 4, if it didn't start with a 4 it wasn't worth having .

Don't get me wrong, I never said the 9 wasn't a worthwhile caliber. What I did say is that it isn't the ballistic equivalent of the 45. The cartridge that has killed more deer than any other? 22rf because it's used in poaching more than any other because of the noise level. I guess that makes the 22rf the ballistic equivalent of the 3-06.
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[KeithB]

The last statistics I've seen for ball ammo in 9mm and .45 showed that the .45 gave one-shot stops about 90+ percent of the time and the 9mm was just above 50%. No doubt the improved bullets we have now greatly increase the effectiveness of the 9mm, but those same techniques are used to make more effective .45 bullets also.

I think it's what you are comfortable with. I usually keep around a 5 shot .38 loaded with ammo that is effectively equivalent to a 9mm from a short barreled gun, so I guess I'm comfortable with 9mm ballistics. But there are times when a .44 Spcl revolver is more comfortable to have around.

Mostly for me as a civilian it is a matter of reliability and ease of operation more than ballistics. I'm not impressed with the reliability of many small autoloaders, and I know that I can get a DA revolver into action under stress with no problems. But that's just me and my thoughts, if you like a little 9mm or .380 or feel like stuffing a Redhawk down your pants go for it.

 

[popper]

When you see the difference between 9mm 115gr and 40sw 180 gr. on feral pigs, go for the 40SW as my friend did. A mag from a glock to stop one, 3 shots (or less) from 40. Yea, & my 9 is loaded with 130gr. - I still take the 40.