Rockydoc
Well-Known Member
There is also one of those P&W Wasp Major engines on display at the Navy Aviation Museum in Pensacola, FL. That is a great museum.
WWII air war history question
- Thread starter BBerguson
- Start date
The crankshaft and cam workings are really interesting on those radials. Kinda like a Harley. Carbs are neat too. Add turbo or supercharger plus water injection - wow. The inverted Corsair gull wing raised the prop from the ground but added strength to the landing gear for the heavy loads. It wasn't the only bird that had to almost stall for carrier landings - partly due to wear and tear on the arresting cables. Time consuming and expensive to replace. IIRC the Navy has a pretty good air museum in Pensacola.
Interesting - P38
Interesting - P38
Lockheed P-38 Lightning
www.aviation-history.com
BBerguson
Official Pennsyltuckian
After doing a bunch more reading since I started this thread I’ve come to a conclusion of sorts. This is still my opinion of course and have decided that I’m choosing a fighter plane for the European theater and one for the Pacific theater. My European choice is the P-47 Thunderbolt and my Pacific choice is the P-38 Lightning. Both planes were introduced early in each theater and were flown in combat missions until the end of the war(s). The P-47, with it’s size and huge radial engine protecting the pilot, proved time after time that the plane could take damage and still bring the pilot home. It was a good bomber escort fighter and may have been the best fighter at high altitude dog fighting. In the ground attack role, it may have been the best single engine fighter in both theaters. With it’s 8 50cal machine guns, its ability to carry bombs and/or rockets, it was feared and hated by the Germans. The P-38 was wanted and requested throughout the Pacific theater war by General George Kenny, commander of the 5th US Air Force. His argument was always that it had two engines and had the best chance of bringing “his kids” back from a mission. Most, or pretty much all combat mission were flown over water and a single engine fighter had zero chance of getting home when the engine was shot out. The P-38, with it’s two engines, could still bring the pilot home with an engine shot out. They were also very well armed with 4 50cal machine guns and one 20mm cannon all concentrated in the nose giving withering fire to the “Nip” or “Jap” planes that got in their way. As you may remember, it was P-38s that intercepted and shot down the Betty bomber carrying Admiral Yamamoto.
Yes, there were a lot of other excellent fighter planes in WWII and many arguments could be made for one of those being the best. From what I’ve read and in my mind, these are the two best of WWII.
Thank you all for the great discussion, I really appreciated it as it helped pass my boring healing time. I hope, when I get back on a normal schedule, (and this covid shutdown goes away) to start a local WWII discussion group to talk with others that have a similar interest in the war that I do. Maybe it will be like a book club, not sure yet but I want to come up with something. My son was taking a course in WWII history at a local college, I‘m going to reach out to that professor and see if he’s interested. Hope so, my son loved his class and was really disappointed when covid shut it down and made in online.
Yes, there were a lot of other excellent fighter planes in WWII and many arguments could be made for one of those being the best. From what I’ve read and in my mind, these are the two best of WWII.
Thank you all for the great discussion, I really appreciated it as it helped pass my boring healing time. I hope, when I get back on a normal schedule, (and this covid shutdown goes away) to start a local WWII discussion group to talk with others that have a similar interest in the war that I do. Maybe it will be like a book club, not sure yet but I want to come up with something. My son was taking a course in WWII history at a local college, I‘m going to reach out to that professor and see if he’s interested. Hope so, my son loved his class and was really disappointed when covid shut it down and made in online.
BBerguson
Official Pennsyltuckian
Bret,
I just finished reading “Air War in the Pacific - the Journal of General George Kenney, Commander of the Fifth US Air Force”. It was excellent and I highly recommend it.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
I forget the source, but I once read the P-38 always had production problems. The design was excellent and the plane was outstanding but there was a lot of hand fabrication needed to produce the P-38. Lockheed had trouble scaling up the production. Consequently, they could never build them fast enough. The plane was admired for its performance and somewhat cursed by its lack of availably in theater.
Speaking about the mission to shoot down Admiral Yamamoto, there was some controversy around that as well. The U.S. had broken the Japanese code and we had good intelligence, so we knew about Yamamoto's flight. However it was at the extreme edge of our range of operation. There was some serious debate about the value of the target verses the risk of men & planes to carry out that mission. In the end, we succeeded but there were some top level people that believed those resources could have been put to better use. (Yamamoto could be replaced; Japanese ships, planes, pilots, food, and oil may have been far more valuable targets). It is one of those paths in history that we'll never know what the alternative would look like.
The psychological effect of killing Yamamoto was probably very valuable - on both sides.
Speaking about the mission to shoot down Admiral Yamamoto, there was some controversy around that as well. The U.S. had broken the Japanese code and we had good intelligence, so we knew about Yamamoto's flight. However it was at the extreme edge of our range of operation. There was some serious debate about the value of the target verses the risk of men & planes to carry out that mission. In the end, we succeeded but there were some top level people that believed those resources could have been put to better use. (Yamamoto could be replaced; Japanese ships, planes, pilots, food, and oil may have been far more valuable targets). It is one of those paths in history that we'll never know what the alternative would look like.
The psychological effect of killing Yamamoto was probably very valuable - on both sides.
L Ross
Well-Known Member
A few years back, (maybe 15), my wife and I had the Junior High kids from the GBPD Police Teen Academy down to our SW WI property as a reward for their excellent behavior during the academy. One day we took them fishing on the Wisconsin River a few miles from our place. The whole bunch was standing on a big sand bar, bank fishing near a bridge at County trunk T when we heard piston engine airplane(s) coming from the south. The EAA convention in Oshkosh, WI was about to start and planes from all over the world come there. We turned to look down the river and OMG there were two Corsairs coming up the river at what looked like below tree top height! Right up the river. They were sort of slaloming back and forth in a two plane weave. They roared with an incredible noise. The two crazy azzed pilots appeared to pull up a little bit to clear the bridge. They wing waggled the kids who were jumping up and down and just screaming. They didn't even know what they were looking at. I was stunned, just stunned. A moment I will never forget. I don't know if those guys were part of the Confederate Air Force or what, but what an experience. Those planes were beautiful and became my instant favorite WWII fighter.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
"I forget the source, but I once read the P-38 always had production problems. The design was excellent and the plane was outstanding but there was a lot of hand fabrication needed to produce the P-38. Lockheed had trouble scaling up the production. Consequently, they could never build them fast enough. The plane was admired for its performance and somewhat cursed by its lack of availably in theater."
You are correct. They were called the "Packard of the Air" not only because they cost over three times as much as a Mustang, but twice as much as a Thunderbolt. The town I live in was the main training station for P-38 mechanics during the war. Many of them came back here to live. It had the smallest cockpit of any single seat fighter. Plus they had the tightest compartments due to the twin nacelles. The air frames were standardized but the bulkheads had to be hand fitted. Every design change they had, it meant revamping many other things. I was told the changing from the early to later radios required the builders to add 10 hours to the build time.
You are correct. They were called the "Packard of the Air" not only because they cost over three times as much as a Mustang, but twice as much as a Thunderbolt. The town I live in was the main training station for P-38 mechanics during the war. Many of them came back here to live. It had the smallest cockpit of any single seat fighter. Plus they had the tightest compartments due to the twin nacelles. The air frames were standardized but the bulkheads had to be hand fitted. Every design change they had, it meant revamping many other things. I was told the changing from the early to later radios required the builders to add 10 hours to the build time.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
There was a lot of land based aerial combat in the Pacific theater, particularly in 42 & 43 when both sides were fighting for control of New Guinea, Guadalcanal, The Solomons and other southern airfields. In fact, the island based runways were referred to as unsinkable carriers.
It was mid 44 that probably marked the beginning of the real push into the vast open sea spaces north of the equator.
The U.S. didn't take Tinian until August 1, 1944. It served as a long range bomber base for flights against mainland Japan.
FDR himself ordered that land based fighters be stripped from places such as Hawaii so that they could be devoted to forward airfields. There was even a fight over how much fighter production would be allocated to the European theater because land based planes were needed in the south Pacific.
While the Pacific Theater is often thought of as a largely oceanic and naval warfare theater (for good reason), what we fought for was control of land.
Carriers give both sides the ability to project power and support invasion forces but the ultimate goal was to take and hold land.
The carrier action got a lot of attention in history but there was a lot of land based air combat in the Pacific Theater.
If you're interested, the book, "Fire in the Sky" by Eric Bergerud is a comprehensive book on the air war in the south Pacific.
It was mid 44 that probably marked the beginning of the real push into the vast open sea spaces north of the equator.
The U.S. didn't take Tinian until August 1, 1944. It served as a long range bomber base for flights against mainland Japan.
FDR himself ordered that land based fighters be stripped from places such as Hawaii so that they could be devoted to forward airfields. There was even a fight over how much fighter production would be allocated to the European theater because land based planes were needed in the south Pacific.
While the Pacific Theater is often thought of as a largely oceanic and naval warfare theater (for good reason), what we fought for was control of land.
Carriers give both sides the ability to project power and support invasion forces but the ultimate goal was to take and hold land.
The carrier action got a lot of attention in history but there was a lot of land based air combat in the Pacific Theater.
If you're interested, the book, "Fire in the Sky" by Eric Bergerud is a comprehensive book on the air war in the south Pacific.
Rockydoc
Well-Known Member
BBerguson
Official Pennsyltuckian
Rocky,
I have a buddy that was a Phantom pilot during Vietnam. He flew something like 636 sorties off a carrier deck. I don’t know how many tours he ended up doing. He said they were on station X amount of time and when it was time for the carrier to go back to the states. they’d hop over to the new carrier coming on station and keep on flying. Shot down twice and shot one fighter down but got in trouble for it because it was either over Laos or Cambodia and he wasn’t supposed to be there.
I have an uncle that served on the ground in Vietnam but he won’t talk about it. My mom said he was in some really bad battles but even she didn’t know very much because he didn’t talk to her about it either.
Oh, and thank you for your service!
I have a buddy that was a Phantom pilot during Vietnam. He flew something like 636 sorties off a carrier deck. I don’t know how many tours he ended up doing. He said they were on station X amount of time and when it was time for the carrier to go back to the states. they’d hop over to the new carrier coming on station and keep on flying. Shot down twice and shot one fighter down but got in trouble for it because it was either over Laos or Cambodia and he wasn’t supposed to be there.
I have an uncle that served on the ground in Vietnam but he won’t talk about it. My mom said he was in some really bad battles but even she didn’t know very much because he didn’t talk to her about it either.
Oh, and thank you for your service!
Last edited:
RBHarter
West Central AR
The Namies are like that there's 3 types . The ones that talk freely about every detail , the ones that will answer whatever is asked usually in a rather cold 3rd person kind of way , and the ones you couldn't pry 10 seconds of the 2 year draft out of with Fat Man , Little Boy and Enola Gay in the back of box canyon off the Grand Canyon .
I worked with 2 of the first . The first one was casual about it in a places , events telling way . He said he "lost/left his brother over there . It really was for the best though , he enjoyed point recon , getting up close , and killing a little too much ." There were other things that were engraved in his memory , while interesting in his telling they are NC17 .
The second made zero bones about what he did , how it was done , and knew every man's name that walked off Hamburger Hill with him and the names of every man that went up with him all 4 times .
He greatly preferred the M14 to the M16 even the A2 and believed firmly that the change over from the 1911 45 was a top 10 FUBAR decision made by collage boys with no service experience .
I worked with 2 of the first . The first one was casual about it in a places , events telling way . He said he "lost/left his brother over there . It really was for the best though , he enjoyed point recon , getting up close , and killing a little too much ." There were other things that were engraved in his memory , while interesting in his telling they are NC17 .
The second made zero bones about what he did , how it was done , and knew every man's name that walked off Hamburger Hill with him and the names of every man that went up with him all 4 times .
He greatly preferred the M14 to the M16 even the A2 and believed firmly that the change over from the 1911 45 was a top 10 FUBAR decision made by collage boys with no service experience .
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
It has been my experience that people who volunteer information about their alleged combat experience, without being asked - are lying.
People that will talk about their combat experiences only after being asked, and then only offer limited information - are generally far more accurate.
And that goes for participants in any combat, not just Vietnam.
People that will talk about their combat experiences only after being asked, and then only offer limited information - are generally far more accurate.
And that goes for participants in any combat, not just Vietnam.
462
California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
Civilians never asked, I never offered, thinking they didn't want to know or wouldn't understand. Took 25 years before I felt comfortable talking about that year. Except to another veteran.
I wish I knew more about my father's time in North Africa and Italy. He didn't talk about it much, I didn't ask about it enough. Sad . . .
An ex-neighbor volunteered to be his squad's point man -- he favored the M-14, too.
I wish I knew more about my father's time in North Africa and Italy. He didn't talk about it much, I didn't ask about it enough. Sad . . .
An ex-neighbor volunteered to be his squad's point man -- he favored the M-14, too.