Lee 120 gr. 9mm Luger bullet
- Thread starter Ben
- Start date
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
The problem we had was the 147 sub sonic stuff not penetrating the skull on a frontal shot rather regulalrly. It would skid off to one side or another as the deer moved about. On a side shot, between eye and ear, all was well. But that usually required a 2nd person to draw the animal attention. Of course the poor things were hyped up on all the adrenaline they had and that didn't help. I couldn't believe how bad that stuff was at first, but we're talking 25 foot shots, FEET, not yards! I was putting them in center of the frontal "X" between eye and ear as I had been for 6 or 7 years with the 357 or even the 38+P and having no problem. And yes, a 22LR would have worked better than the Sainted "FBI Load"!!! When we went to the 124 +P Gold Dots all such problems disappeared immediately. That was the worst factory ammo I ever used as far as meeting it's intended purpose! I would say you get 1 good performance kill out of 3 or 4, and that's pathetic.
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CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
Those 9mm 'Sub-Sonic' 147 grain loads were excreble. My shop went to that loading at the same time we added the 40 S&W/180 Ranger SXT as an option. Our folks voted with their feet--they embraced the 40 wholeheartedly and abandoned the 9mm. I did some hunting with that 9mm stuff--jackrabbits needed a follow-up shot as often as not. That sort of performance doesn't inspire confidence. In my world the 9mm was relegated to target cartridge status and I rolled with the 45 ACP (S&W 4516 and SIG P-220). I added the Beretta 96 in 40 S&W for uniform duty in the late 1990s.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
I think anyone with even slight knowledge of the 147gr sub-sonic crap knows what a failure that stuff was.
Unfortunately, for a lot of folks it just got lumped into the collective opinion of ALL 9mm Luger ammunition, dragging down the reputation of the cartridge in general.
The same holds true for the use of FMJ round nose 9mm loadings. There would be spectacular terminal ballistic failures from FMJ rounds and the blame would be placed on the 9mm cartridge not the type of bullet. People that would never dream of using an FMJ RN bullet in a revolver for self-defense would use FMJ RN in a 9mm pistol and then blame the cartridge for poor terminal performance.
And to further aggravate the misconceptions, in the 1970’s and 1980’s if you went looking for 9mm Luger ammunition you would be hard pressed to find anything other than FMJ factory ammo. Better ammunition existed in those days but many new users of 9mm pistols didn’t seek out that better ammo. The most utilized ammunition in those days was FMJ RN. As a result, there were lots of uses of 9mm Luger ammunition with corresponding poor results to fuel the growing bad reputation of that “foreign” cartridge.
Unfortunately, for a lot of folks it just got lumped into the collective opinion of ALL 9mm Luger ammunition, dragging down the reputation of the cartridge in general.
The same holds true for the use of FMJ round nose 9mm loadings. There would be spectacular terminal ballistic failures from FMJ rounds and the blame would be placed on the 9mm cartridge not the type of bullet. People that would never dream of using an FMJ RN bullet in a revolver for self-defense would use FMJ RN in a 9mm pistol and then blame the cartridge for poor terminal performance.
And to further aggravate the misconceptions, in the 1970’s and 1980’s if you went looking for 9mm Luger ammunition you would be hard pressed to find anything other than FMJ factory ammo. Better ammunition existed in those days but many new users of 9mm pistols didn’t seek out that better ammo. The most utilized ammunition in those days was FMJ RN. As a result, there were lots of uses of 9mm Luger ammunition with corresponding poor results to fuel the growing bad reputation of that “foreign” cartridge.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I don't think the 9mm in some of the hotter loadings is a bad SD round, or even a small game round. It's just that so many so called +P loadings that were supposed to push 13-1400 fps with a light bullet really were loafing along at more like 11 or 1200. That's not bad, but in the mid 90's the sheer BS we saw was overwhelming. I figure the 9mm is about like a hot loaded 38 Spec and should be thought if in similar limitations. I dont want to be shot with either, I know that. If I get the Hi Power I hope to find a cast load that works with a nice flat nose. That will suit me.
I can't recall is it was the 147 sub sonic or the 124+P stuff that let down one of our Troopers and ended up with him dead, but either way we went to the 45- The "GAP" at first and then the "ACP" when Glocks baby died in the crib. Both work better than the 9mm. Of course, I was okay with my trusty old 357, but I'm an odd duck anyways!
I can't recall is it was the 147 sub sonic or the 124+P stuff that let down one of our Troopers and ended up with him dead, but either way we went to the 45- The "GAP" at first and then the "ACP" when Glocks baby died in the crib. Both work better than the 9mm. Of course, I was okay with my trusty old 357, but I'm an odd duck anyways!
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
I don’t believe one can assess a cartridge based on a single event or even dozens of events. The variables are just too numerous. However, over time trends will emerge.
As for the 9mm Luger being compared to a hot 38 Special, I guess one could look at it that way. A .355” diameter, 125 grain bullet travelling at 1200 fps would seem to me to be more like a slow 357 magnum than a fast 38 Special, but I can see the comparison from both angles.
In any event, a 9mm diameter, 115-125 grain bullet, with a proper bullet profile, moving approxiamtely 1200 fps, is no joke.
After decades of disparaging stories about the performance of the 9mm, the bias against the cartridge is deeply entrenched. In my opinion it is difficult for the 9mm to get a fair evaluation.
A great deal of the reputation of the 9mm Luger cartridge is influenced by lore based on years of FMJ round nose bullets, underloaded cartridges and poor hollow point designs. The fact that it was “that foreign cartridge” didn’t help matters.
A similar situation of poor reputation occurred when the 38 Special 158 gr lead round nose bullet was a common loading. Good shot placement could compensate for that poor performing round nose bullet but a better bullet (soft lead, SWC hollowpoint pushed to +P velocities) was the real fix.
As for the 9mm Luger being compared to a hot 38 Special, I guess one could look at it that way. A .355” diameter, 125 grain bullet travelling at 1200 fps would seem to me to be more like a slow 357 magnum than a fast 38 Special, but I can see the comparison from both angles.
In any event, a 9mm diameter, 115-125 grain bullet, with a proper bullet profile, moving approxiamtely 1200 fps, is no joke.
After decades of disparaging stories about the performance of the 9mm, the bias against the cartridge is deeply entrenched. In my opinion it is difficult for the 9mm to get a fair evaluation.
A great deal of the reputation of the 9mm Luger cartridge is influenced by lore based on years of FMJ round nose bullets, underloaded cartridges and poor hollow point designs. The fact that it was “that foreign cartridge” didn’t help matters.
A similar situation of poor reputation occurred when the 38 Special 158 gr lead round nose bullet was a common loading. Good shot placement could compensate for that poor performing round nose bullet but a better bullet (soft lead, SWC hollowpoint pushed to +P velocities) was the real fix.
Glaciers
Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Ok we’ve gotten into the pistol caliber wars but in a somewhat focused way.
So to bring it back to Ben’s original posting I have a couple of questions on 38 special and 9mm loadings.
I have 6 candidates, 4 which are 9mm, one that is 9mm but on the heavier side and one that’s probably to heavy for the 9 but just right for the 38. So all 6 of these will work fine in the 38 special, but my question is about the 9mm. Some of the post on this thread have drifted off of the 38 to the 9 and talking about there lethality of. Lot of variables obviously. So I’m about to purchase a case of 9mm PMC fmj to add to my stash because the price is right. I can’t buy bullets, powder, primers, and brass for what I can buy factory. Then I will have lots to practice with and good brass after the fact.
The question has been raised about lethality primarily the fmj loading which is the least desirable bullet in my book. So in the interest of economy and this casting hobby I would like some in put on different molds that I own.
left to right
1st: LEE 358-105 actual weight 111g, not pictured is a LEE 358-140 twin bigger sister to the 105g which is currently being restored, 2nd pictured is Ben’s LEE 358-120 weight 124.5g, 3rd - NOE 358-136 HP, cup point and flat point pins With HP pins weights in at 133g, 4th pictured is the LEE 358-125 RF weighs in at 128.5. The 6th below is the LEE 358-158 which has been HP conversion by Eric, I don’t have any castings laying around but I would guess this would weigh in at about 150g.
yeah it needs a little cleanup
So of the 6 which would be good ones for the 9mm considering self defense in mind. I’m kinda liking the NOE, Ben’s LEE 120 and the LEE 125. So recommendations and opinions would be appreciated.
Oh and by the way these for pictured are sized 358 for my Smith 38’s Obviously I’m thinking dual purposes here.
So to bring it back to Ben’s original posting I have a couple of questions on 38 special and 9mm loadings.
I have 6 candidates, 4 which are 9mm, one that is 9mm but on the heavier side and one that’s probably to heavy for the 9 but just right for the 38. So all 6 of these will work fine in the 38 special, but my question is about the 9mm. Some of the post on this thread have drifted off of the 38 to the 9 and talking about there lethality of. Lot of variables obviously. So I’m about to purchase a case of 9mm PMC fmj to add to my stash because the price is right. I can’t buy bullets, powder, primers, and brass for what I can buy factory. Then I will have lots to practice with and good brass after the fact.
The question has been raised about lethality primarily the fmj loading which is the least desirable bullet in my book. So in the interest of economy and this casting hobby I would like some in put on different molds that I own.
left to right
1st: LEE 358-105 actual weight 111g, not pictured is a LEE 358-140 twin bigger sister to the 105g which is currently being restored, 2nd pictured is Ben’s LEE 358-120 weight 124.5g, 3rd - NOE 358-136 HP, cup point and flat point pins With HP pins weights in at 133g, 4th pictured is the LEE 358-125 RF weighs in at 128.5. The 6th below is the LEE 358-158 which has been HP conversion by Eric, I don’t have any castings laying around but I would guess this would weigh in at about 150g.
yeah it needs a little cleanup
So of the 6 which would be good ones for the 9mm considering self defense in mind. I’m kinda liking the NOE, Ben’s LEE 120 and the LEE 125. So recommendations and opinions would be appreciated.
Oh and by the way these for pictured are sized 358 for my Smith 38’s Obviously I’m thinking dual purposes here.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
I'll toss in here but I'm sure there will be conflicting opinions.
105 grains (111 actual) is just too light for 38 Special and really below the 115 grains that the 9mm Luger generally bottoms out at. The 38 Special can shoot lightweight bullets, and many people use those sub-130 grain bullets. But beyond punching holes in paper, the 38 Special really loses its terminal usefulness below about 148-150 grains. So that weight is out for a general-purpose bullet shared between the two cartridges.
The Lee 358-120 TC is an excellent 9mm bullet and can serve as a lightweight 38 Special bullet, but it is too light to extract the full potential of the 38 Special.
Unfortunately, above 125 grains and we completely leave the territory where the 9mm can operate without suffering. The dreaded 147 grain 9mm bullet turns the 9mm pistol into a high capacity 38 Special. While good accuracy can be obtained, the 147-grain bullet is just FAR too slow to take advantage of the true power of the 9mm Luger loading. Outside of use in suppressed 9mm weapons, the 147-grain bullet has no place in 9mm loadings. Above 125 grains the 9mm just gets way too slow!
So, In MY Opinion…. There’s not a lot of crossover between 9mm bullets and 38 special bullets beyond a nearly common diameter. The 9mm delivers its best performance with bullets between 115-125 grain. The 38 Special delivers its best performance with bullets in the 148-160 grain range. Yes, good accuracy can be obtained outside of those parameters, but terminal performance suffers greatly. The 38 Special works with max pressures of 17K (or 20K +P) and velocities around 700-900 fps. The 9mm is a high-pressure cartridge (35K) and needs to be pushed faster to extract its’ full potential.
Standard bullet weights didn’t develop by accident, there are solid reasons those standard weights are common.
105 grains (111 actual) is just too light for 38 Special and really below the 115 grains that the 9mm Luger generally bottoms out at. The 38 Special can shoot lightweight bullets, and many people use those sub-130 grain bullets. But beyond punching holes in paper, the 38 Special really loses its terminal usefulness below about 148-150 grains. So that weight is out for a general-purpose bullet shared between the two cartridges.
The Lee 358-120 TC is an excellent 9mm bullet and can serve as a lightweight 38 Special bullet, but it is too light to extract the full potential of the 38 Special.
Unfortunately, above 125 grains and we completely leave the territory where the 9mm can operate without suffering. The dreaded 147 grain 9mm bullet turns the 9mm pistol into a high capacity 38 Special. While good accuracy can be obtained, the 147-grain bullet is just FAR too slow to take advantage of the true power of the 9mm Luger loading. Outside of use in suppressed 9mm weapons, the 147-grain bullet has no place in 9mm loadings. Above 125 grains the 9mm just gets way too slow!
So, In MY Opinion…. There’s not a lot of crossover between 9mm bullets and 38 special bullets beyond a nearly common diameter. The 9mm delivers its best performance with bullets between 115-125 grain. The 38 Special delivers its best performance with bullets in the 148-160 grain range. Yes, good accuracy can be obtained outside of those parameters, but terminal performance suffers greatly. The 38 Special works with max pressures of 17K (or 20K +P) and velocities around 700-900 fps. The 9mm is a high-pressure cartridge (35K) and needs to be pushed faster to extract its’ full potential.
Standard bullet weights didn’t develop by accident, there are solid reasons those standard weights are common.
Glaciers
Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
For the 9mm the LEE 120, and 125 are of interest along with the NOE at 133 are of the most interest.
All of these bullets are going to be used in the 38 special for plinking and paper punching fun. I’m trying to up my wife’s interest in shooting as she shoots a 44 Bulldog but isn’t fond of it, so hence the light loaded 38’s. I’m totally familiar with loading the 38 it’s the 9 I’m just not familiar with.
But my main question is the use of primarily using these bullets in the 9mm as I have never loaded for the 9mm before. Like to come up with a primary consistent loading for SHTF stock pile.
All of these bullets are going to be used in the 38 special for plinking and paper punching fun. I’m trying to up my wife’s interest in shooting as she shoots a 44 Bulldog but isn’t fond of it, so hence the light loaded 38’s. I’m totally familiar with loading the 38 it’s the 9 I’m just not familiar with.
But my main question is the use of primarily using these bullets in the 9mm as I have never loaded for the 9mm before. Like to come up with a primary consistent loading for SHTF stock pile.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
I have loaded and shot a ton or two of 9mm Luger cartridges, albeit more jacketed bullets than cast. Compared to the 38 Special, the 9mm can be a bit picky with cast bullets. With jacketed bullets it is straight forward.
In my experience, 9mm pistol barrels are all over the map in terms of internal dimensions, and that is where some of the challenges lay. Due to the varying groove diameters, I find that I must cast and size bullets for a particular 9mm pistol. With 38 Special, I can use the same sized bullet in just about any S&W or Ruger revolver without issue. (Colts are a different animal)
If you only have one 9mm pistol or more than one with similar dimensions, all is well. If you have a variety of different barrel specs, then things get a little more complicated.
With 115-125 grain bullets in 9mm Luger casings, I tend to seat bullets (both cast and jacketed) to achieve fairly long OAL. This is done for two reasons: 1. Safety – a deep seated bullet can create high pressure in that little 9mm casing. 2. Functioning – I find that 9mm cartridges that have OAL closer to the upper limit tend to feed and function better across multiple pistol platforms.
I think your gravitation towards the 120-125 grain bullets for both 9mm and 38 Special is a good path. I suspect, the truncated cone 120gr will be the friendliest in semi auto pistols in terms of feeding and functioning. Of course, revolvers suffer no such issues as long as the cartridge chambers, is within specs, and the bullet exits the barrel.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
That's sort of a wide open question.
Military, most, if not all, abide by the restriction on expanding bullets.
LE, they are no different than the police on this side of the pond.
Not a lot of civilian firearms used for self-defense in Europe but some countries have active target shooting clubs.
L Ross
Well-Known Member
I can see how hot fmj Euro ammo could be effective when you are hit with a swarm of them from some sub gun.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
I think even one can make for a bad day......
Glaciers
Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Well a FMJ can ruin your day even with all the design drawbacks that have been discussed in this thread.
But Ben’s LEE 120 has a fairly decent size flat nose which would be a major step up in stopping power. My point is it should work well in the 9mm but as Ben has it loaded should be a dandy in the 38 and the 357. I’m thinking it should work well in a Rossi carbine lever gun. A good dual loading.
I know Ben has a Marlin 38 lever gun, I’m laying money that he’s going to report and this 38 load in his carbine. Shot by Trevor anyway
But Ben’s LEE 120 has a fairly decent size flat nose which would be a major step up in stopping power. My point is it should work well in the 9mm but as Ben has it loaded should be a dandy in the 38 and the 357. I’m thinking it should work well in a Rossi carbine lever gun. A good dual loading.
I know Ben has a Marlin 38 lever gun, I’m laying money that he’s going to report and this 38 load in his carbine. Shot by Trevor anyway
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
The Lee 120 TC design closely parallels the OEM FMJ bullet's design in German WWI 9mm ammo. Hatcher thought highly of the TC FMJ design compared with the RN FMJ in the context of stopping potential--peruse his 'Shape factor' angle.
The sweet spot for the 9mm is a 115 grain bullet at 1200-1300 FPS and a 120-125 at similar ZIP Codes. I thought the old W-W STHPs were all right in 9mm--115 grain JHP running 1200-1225 from my S&W M-459 and a friend's 3914. That became heresy after Miami 1986, and the STHPs wore the hat for that debacle. This is the format followed by .gov wonks in such instances--
1) Awareness of problem
2) A search for the guilty, followed by
3) Punishment of the innocent, followed by
4) Promotions for the marginally-involved and the shotcallers.
My eyes glaze over.
The sweet spot for the 9mm is a 115 grain bullet at 1200-1300 FPS and a 120-125 at similar ZIP Codes. I thought the old W-W STHPs were all right in 9mm--115 grain JHP running 1200-1225 from my S&W M-459 and a friend's 3914. That became heresy after Miami 1986, and the STHPs wore the hat for that debacle. This is the format followed by .gov wonks in such instances--
1) Awareness of problem
2) A search for the guilty, followed by
3) Punishment of the innocent, followed by
4) Promotions for the marginally-involved and the shotcallers.
My eyes glaze over.
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Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
The 1986 Miami shootout had far reaching consequences.
As I wrote back in post #26: " I don’t believe one can assess a cartridge based on a single event or even dozens of events. The variables are just too numerous. However, over time trends will emerge."
I stand by that.
The "failure" (if you can call it that) of a single round in one 1986 event, launched a lot of activity.
The FBI couldn't blame poor tactics, so they had to blame the cartridge.
The replacement for that cartridge couldn't be an exisiting cartridge because that would beg the question, "if it already exists, why weren't you using it"?
That resulted in the downloaded 10mm and that begot the 40 S&W.
And YES, the TC design closely resembles the early 9mm Luger bullet and that round was actually pretty good even without a hollow point.
As I wrote back in post #26: " I don’t believe one can assess a cartridge based on a single event or even dozens of events. The variables are just too numerous. However, over time trends will emerge."
I stand by that.
The "failure" (if you can call it that) of a single round in one 1986 event, launched a lot of activity.
The FBI couldn't blame poor tactics, so they had to blame the cartridge.
The replacement for that cartridge couldn't be an exisiting cartridge because that would beg the question, "if it already exists, why weren't you using it"?
That resulted in the downloaded 10mm and that begot the 40 S&W.
And YES, the TC design closely resembles the early 9mm Luger bullet and that round was actually pretty good even without a hollow point.
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First two rounds I ever reloaded for were the 220 Swift and the 9mm Luger in pistol. At the time if I had read the popular gun press of the era, you'd have thought I was crazy beginning with these two. Fortunately, I was blissfully unaware of all the potential problem and simply followed the instructions in the Speer number 10 reloading manual carefully. Managed to survive and my 9mm reloads were better than the cheap gun show reloads I use to buy. At the time Super Vel was on the way out (mostly nonexistent) and Winchester had yet to introduce the Silvertip pistol bullet loads. The S&W 9mm Nyclad ammo seemed to be the best option at the time and when Winchester 115 grain Silvertip ammo became available, I began using it. Thing have come a ways since the late 1970's early 80's and in some ways even more so. The 9mm received a lot of ammo manufacturer attention in the mid to late 1980's when police forces began issuing the 9mm pistols en mass. Things tapered off in the 1990's early 2000's with the introduction of the 40 S&W and now once again there seems to be something of a resurgence in 9mm popularity among police forces. This of course brings more attention and resources to research and development departments for better 9mm ammo. Look what all the attention from ammo manufacturers that the 357 received back when it was king of the police rounds. I always liked the Browning Hi Power so stayed away from the hot NATO 9mm stuff I would run it in the Beretta 92 but it had a reputation for being too hot for regular use in a P35. Oddly enough I have very little desire to stand in front of even a pellet rifle and try and catch what's shot at me let alone a 22 short. Ammo has always been like everything else in life, you pay your money and take your chances. But then I never had to accept what was issued to me by someone more worried about the ammo being politically correct or a budget director either.
That is the question, eh? The load with which I'm most familiar is the Brit Mark 2Z. Produced from WWII til the '80s, it used a gilding metal jacket over a lead core. The bullet weight was 115 grains, and it gave an honest 1275-1300 fps from the High Powers I shot in those days. I've seen it in use with 3rd world militaries, with police as late as the '90s, and milsurp. From what I hear, the Euro militaries are using NATO spec ball, and at least some of the police are using the same or similar loads.
Glaciers, these days I don't even own a 9mm but I've got most of a case of Federal 9BP tucked away "just in case" I get another. It has always worked, I see no reason to change. (Then again, my 38 is loaded with the old FBI load, so maybe I'm just behind the times.) I had a single-cavity LEE 358-120 someone hollow-pointed: other than the slow production rate, it was a great bullet. Cast of WWL and run at ~1250 fps it worked fine. Cast of lino and run at 1350fps, it would disintegrate on impact: great jackrabbit bullet, but not for serious use.