Lee 120 gr. 9mm Luger bullet
- Thread starter Ben
- Start date
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
For those having difficulty with my post #31 in this thread, no I'm not saying 9mm FMJ and letting them bleed out is a preferred way of doing things, in fact I'm saying just the opposite. Change the bullet to that Lee 125FN and the paradigm changes.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
Agreed, sir.
The M9 ammo is a full-snort 9 x 19 at Euro specs. Place a good bullet of same weight with decent shape factor and/or controlled expansion capability the 9 x 19 will do to ride the river with.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
In the end I have come to have less dependence of expanding HP/SN type bullets and a lot more on the old, boring flat nose. Yeah, at 3K FPS it's not such a big deal but at 12-1500 I think it is. I know what a little, dinky 311316 will do on meat at 1400 and 2200+. A bigger caliber nose is more of the same. Maybe it won't penetrate a north bound moose from the southern end of things, but not much will.
If I ever get that Hi Power, and IF I ever recover from this walking death I've been fighting, I will likely go with something like that Lee 125 FN. To me that looks like it might feed alright and the front end looks good for destruction of anything it hits. It's funny that right now I'm reading Townsend Whelen, Roberts and Newton on their thoughts on what makes a good bullet. Not much has changed!!!
If I ever get that Hi Power, and IF I ever recover from this walking death I've been fighting, I will likely go with something like that Lee 125 FN. To me that looks like it might feed alright and the front end looks good for destruction of anything it hits. It's funny that right now I'm reading Townsend Whelen, Roberts and Newton on their thoughts on what makes a good bullet. Not much has changed!!!
fiver
Well-Known Member
allen typed in what i was gonna about the original shape.
Fiocchi used to make a jacketed bullet round that was super similar to the LEE T/C [maybe still do] i always suspected it was pretty much a direct copy of the German design.
it fed in everything i had at the time, and i have faith in a flat nose.
the flat nose of course is my favorite [but generally has RN in front of it] but i've shot enough slow motion cast bullets through deer and cows and the like to have built that faith up in them producing not only 2 holes, but also creating a bruising wound channel about 3 times the diameter of the bullet in soft [lung type] tissue.
Fiocchi used to make a jacketed bullet round that was super similar to the LEE T/C [maybe still do] i always suspected it was pretty much a direct copy of the German design.
it fed in everything i had at the time, and i have faith in a flat nose.
the flat nose of course is my favorite [but generally has RN in front of it] but i've shot enough slow motion cast bullets through deer and cows and the like to have built that faith up in them producing not only 2 holes, but also creating a bruising wound channel about 3 times the diameter of the bullet in soft [lung type] tissue.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
So, trying to corral lots of previously mentioned thoughts and good observations here:
The Truncated Cone profile is very close, if not identical, to the original German 9mm Luger bullet profile. In a jacketed bullet it is very good design. In a cast lead bullet, it may even be better.
The 115-125 grain weight range is what that cartridge was designed around. That cartridge was designed to capitalize on that weight/speed balance. Above 125 grains and the 9mm just gets too slow to be true to its original parameters while staying within acceptable pressure.
Assuming the bullet doesn’t expand, a flat point (like on the TC profile) is far better than a round nose FMJ. The TC profile assures good functioning while giving up very little bearing surface and preserving a flat point.
With good, controlled expansion designs, a modern hollow point can improve upon the original design, while doing no harm if the velocity is where it needs to be.
When loaded to the proper (read that as full) potential, a 115-125 grain, .355” diameter projectile, travelling at around 1200 FPS …..isn’t too shabby.
The Truncated Cone profile is very close, if not identical, to the original German 9mm Luger bullet profile. In a jacketed bullet it is very good design. In a cast lead bullet, it may even be better.
The 115-125 grain weight range is what that cartridge was designed around. That cartridge was designed to capitalize on that weight/speed balance. Above 125 grains and the 9mm just gets too slow to be true to its original parameters while staying within acceptable pressure.
Assuming the bullet doesn’t expand, a flat point (like on the TC profile) is far better than a round nose FMJ. The TC profile assures good functioning while giving up very little bearing surface and preserving a flat point.
With good, controlled expansion designs, a modern hollow point can improve upon the original design, while doing no harm if the velocity is where it needs to be.
When loaded to the proper (read that as full) potential, a 115-125 grain, .355” diameter projectile, travelling at around 1200 FPS …..isn’t too shabby.
fiver
Well-Known Member
correct.
look at the meplat diameter, and compare it to one on a 30 cal rifle bullet.
you get a bit more velocity and length with the 30 cal cast bullet of course, but 100yds from a 1800 fps start isn't gonna be a whole lot higher impact velocity,, and god knows how many deer have been shot/killed with just that situation.
heck the old 30-30 just barely beats those rifle numbers in [what at the time was] a high speed flat shooting rifle.
look at the meplat diameter, and compare it to one on a 30 cal rifle bullet.
you get a bit more velocity and length with the 30 cal cast bullet of course, but 100yds from a 1800 fps start isn't gonna be a whole lot higher impact velocity,, and god knows how many deer have been shot/killed with just that situation.
heck the old 30-30 just barely beats those rifle numbers in [what at the time was] a high speed flat shooting rifle.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
If a reloader was looking for a bullet to only be used in 38 Special, a 125 grain option would not be my recommendation.
While the 120-125 grain bullets can be used in 38 Special and they are also good candidates for dual use in 38 Special and 9mm, the 125 grain bullet is a little too light for dedicated use in 38 Special - in my opinion.
If you take the dual use (38 Spl & 9mm) out of the requirements - the 120-125 bullets lose their appeal for 38 Special.
Thumbcocker
Active Member
The Lee 125 rnfp is the only thing I have found that will shoot to the sights on model 10 Smiths for me. They will usually hit what the front sight covers at 25 yards. Why those guns were sighted to hit 3" high with 158 grain loads is a mystery to me.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
I have found that most S&W K-frames chambered in 38 Special with fixed sights have sights regulated for 158gr bullets. However I do have one problem child model 64 that likes lighter weight bullets. So it's not a rule as much as it is the norm.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
The 6 O' clock hold on a traditional bullseye match target may be the answer there. Just guessing.
Thumbcocker
Active Member
Which begs the question: Why would any law enforcement agency send their officers out with a gun that required the mental gymnastics of remembering to hols 3" low in a gunfight? Then again I don't understand why the B27 target is set up with the x ring in the "gut shot" area instead of at the nipple line where most of the important stuff is.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
For starters, I don't think holding at the bottom of your intended target requires any mental gymnastics. That's simply the difference of a sight picture with the target on top of the front sight as opposed to covering it with the front sight.
As for the scoring of the B27 target (a target almost completely abandoned in LE training these days) the emphasis was on shooting center of mass NOT the best anatomical target. So, the X ring was placed in the center of the silhouette, not the center of vital structures.
LE training was developed out of target shooting disciplines and it took a long time to shift that training to combat oriented methods.
RBHarter
West Central AR
I read something in passing somewhere that this tickled .
Aim at the belt buckle not the shirt buttons .....or something to that effect .
Pumpkin on a post , cover the spot with the dot , cover it with the muzzle . With those tools many generations learned to shoot, many very well. Lots of them just shoot windage and hold over unaided by knobs , dials , and switches ..... Of course field work isn't the same as target work for scores .
Aim at the belt buckle not the shirt buttons .....or something to that effect .
Pumpkin on a post , cover the spot with the dot , cover it with the muzzle . With those tools many generations learned to shoot, many very well. Lots of them just shoot windage and hold over unaided by knobs , dials , and switches ..... Of course field work isn't the same as target work for scores .
Rick H
Well-Known Member
I don't know why, but it might just be an unintended bonus. There is a very real tendency to shoot high in less than favorable light conditions. We cheat holding the front sight higher in an attempt to see the damn thing. Modern tritium "night sights" help minimize this.
fiver
Well-Known Member
it's because 90+% of the time the dude being shot at is focused on the shooter and not some tiny little black blade between him and the threat.
look at the sights on your average mil-spec 1911.
bright daylight, darkish interior...
it's still more of a guess than any sort of precision.
look at the sights on your average mil-spec 1911.
bright daylight, darkish interior...
it's still more of a guess than any sort of precision.
L Ross
Well-Known Member
Yessir! Try just try to tear your eyes off the guy with the knife, gun, club, whatever and think front sight, front sight. Not sure how much practice that'd take. Yup, qualifying, practice shooting, whatever seems easy. When the poop hits the fan, i dunno.