9 mm problems
- Thread starter Glaciers
- Start date
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
The Ruger P-85 has a reputation for feeding reliability. I doubt seriously that your pistol is at fault here. I have its cousin, a P-89X in 9mm with a cool swap-barrel in 30 Luger. In 9mm mode it is as reliable and accurate as my SIG P-226.
The 9mm gets greatly under-loaded in this country, forfeiting 20% to 30% of its power potential from that of European ammunition. Most of your load problems seem to be caused by under-loaded ammunition (weak or short slide cycle). Your ammo doesn't seem to be "unsafe", per se--just under-powered. That ammo is only "unsafe" if you plan to use it for defense. The easiest way to unload this ammo is through the muzzle, unless you are hugely interested in recycling the bullets in their unfired state. The balky ammo will be a GREAT training regimen for learning clearing drills, too--just make certain that all bullets clear the muzzle before firing the next shot. Yeah, it's a PITA when an autopistol turns into archery tackle (William Tell cycling), but its much faster and easier than breaking down loaded ammunition. IMO, any 115 grain 9mm bullet going under 1100 FPS is an underpowered load. European standard since 1902 has been 123-125 grain FMJ bullets at 1225-1250 FPS. "+P+", mi nalgas!
The 9mm gets greatly under-loaded in this country, forfeiting 20% to 30% of its power potential from that of European ammunition. Most of your load problems seem to be caused by under-loaded ammunition (weak or short slide cycle). Your ammo doesn't seem to be "unsafe", per se--just under-powered. That ammo is only "unsafe" if you plan to use it for defense. The easiest way to unload this ammo is through the muzzle, unless you are hugely interested in recycling the bullets in their unfired state. The balky ammo will be a GREAT training regimen for learning clearing drills, too--just make certain that all bullets clear the muzzle before firing the next shot. Yeah, it's a PITA when an autopistol turns into archery tackle (William Tell cycling), but its much faster and easier than breaking down loaded ammunition. IMO, any 115 grain 9mm bullet going under 1100 FPS is an underpowered load. European standard since 1902 has been 123-125 grain FMJ bullets at 1225-1250 FPS. "+P+", mi nalgas!
Last edited:
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
From the OP's description and picture, I'm going to venture a guess that powder may be Unique. (no way to know for sure and too dangerous to guess).
If that is Unique, that's a low charge weight.
There's also the possibility that only some of the cartridges have a low powder weight.
I agree with Al that a Ruger P-85 will function reliably if fed half-way decent ammo; so that's probably not a gun issue.
I also agree that typical U.S. loadings for 9mm Luger are on the wimpy side. I'm not sure how that came to be but it has been my experience that both factory loaded ball ammo and reloading data for 9mm is a bit weak.
What we label as 9mm +P is pretty much what Europe calls 9mm. The same holds true for 32 ACP.
I would not bother attempting to re-crimp those rounds. It would be wasted time and effort.
Your best bet is to shoot it up for the brass OR break it down with a puller and discard the powder.
If you pull the bullets (which would be tedious work) you would at least have primed cases and bullets for your efforts.
If that is Unique, that's a low charge weight.
There's also the possibility that only some of the cartridges have a low powder weight.
I agree with Al that a Ruger P-85 will function reliably if fed half-way decent ammo; so that's probably not a gun issue.
I also agree that typical U.S. loadings for 9mm Luger are on the wimpy side. I'm not sure how that came to be but it has been my experience that both factory loaded ball ammo and reloading data for 9mm is a bit weak.
What we label as 9mm +P is pretty much what Europe calls 9mm. The same holds true for 32 ACP.
I would not bother attempting to re-crimp those rounds. It would be wasted time and effort.
Your best bet is to shoot it up for the brass OR break it down with a puller and discard the powder.
If you pull the bullets (which would be tedious work) you would at least have primed cases and bullets for your efforts.
Glaciers
Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Ok it quit snowing and the election is over, so, finally have time to further check a few more things on this ammo.
Pulled 5 cartridges down and consistent at 4.5 grains of mystery powder. Bullets are 115 grain fmj.
But COAL is all over the place. Shortest is 1.143 and the longest is 1.165.
First I tried to increase the crimp without changing COAL, 10 rounds crimped tighter by .001 at the most. Did not change seating depth. Action cycled 2 or three times, but mostly failure of cycling/extracting as before. Couple of rounds cycled.
Ran 10 rounds over the crony came up with velocities all over the place, low 796 fps, high 1015 fps. Average of 880 fps.
Looking in the Hornady #10 and Speer #15 in the 115 charts for comparison.
So the fmj load in the Hornady book has a COAL of 1.100. Difference form my cartridges is: minimum .035, max .055.
The Hornady manual lists Universal max charge at 4.5 @ 1100fps, and Titegroup at 4.1 @ 1100 fps. The 4.5 grains of mystery powder in my cartridges is well within safe range of all other powders, and only exceeds Titegroup.
The Speer manual for there 115 fmj has a COAL of 1.135. Difference here is minimum.010 and max is .030. The 4.5 grains in my cartridges is well within the safe in all loadings listed.
I do not know the brand of the bullet in these cartridges.
So, I believe that the COAL inconsistency is the main culprit here. Not knowing what brand bullet these are I don't think I would go to the 1.100 length, but the Speer COAL of 1.135 would be a next step that should be safe I'm thinking. I would think that 1.125 would be safe as well, but 1.135 would be a good test to see if cycling improves (which would not take much) and run then over the crony for hopefully a velocity improvement.
Please give me your thoughts. Am I going in the right direction? Thoughts on safety in doing the remedy above.
Pulled 5 cartridges down and consistent at 4.5 grains of mystery powder. Bullets are 115 grain fmj.
But COAL is all over the place. Shortest is 1.143 and the longest is 1.165.
First I tried to increase the crimp without changing COAL, 10 rounds crimped tighter by .001 at the most. Did not change seating depth. Action cycled 2 or three times, but mostly failure of cycling/extracting as before. Couple of rounds cycled.
Ran 10 rounds over the crony came up with velocities all over the place, low 796 fps, high 1015 fps. Average of 880 fps.
Looking in the Hornady #10 and Speer #15 in the 115 charts for comparison.
So the fmj load in the Hornady book has a COAL of 1.100. Difference form my cartridges is: minimum .035, max .055.
The Hornady manual lists Universal max charge at 4.5 @ 1100fps, and Titegroup at 4.1 @ 1100 fps. The 4.5 grains of mystery powder in my cartridges is well within safe range of all other powders, and only exceeds Titegroup.
The Speer manual for there 115 fmj has a COAL of 1.135. Difference here is minimum.010 and max is .030. The 4.5 grains in my cartridges is well within the safe in all loadings listed.
I do not know the brand of the bullet in these cartridges.
So, I believe that the COAL inconsistency is the main culprit here. Not knowing what brand bullet these are I don't think I would go to the 1.100 length, but the Speer COAL of 1.135 would be a next step that should be safe I'm thinking. I would think that 1.125 would be safe as well, but 1.135 would be a good test to see if cycling improves (which would not take much) and run then over the crony for hopefully a velocity improvement.
Please give me your thoughts. Am I going in the right direction? Thoughts on safety in doing the remedy above.
I have a feeling that OAL variations are the reason for the wide velocity spread.
You MiGHT get away with a small decrease in OAL to increase pressure. A good taper crimp after reseating should hold things in place.
Go slow and keep using the chrony to judge progress. Once you get full functioning shoot them up.
You MiGHT get away with a small decrease in OAL to increase pressure. A good taper crimp after reseating should hold things in place.
Go slow and keep using the chrony to judge progress. Once you get full functioning shoot them up.
Dusty Bannister
Well-Known Member
If you have fired some with an OAL of 1.143 safely, perhaps you can make up 5 or 10 and seat and crimp to that OAL and shoot those over the Chronograph. Consider doing the same with another test group at 1.135" and at 1.125". Monitor the velocity of these loads to avoid a possibility of excess pressure, and also to see how the arm cycles. You should use caution to avoid bullet trajectory changes that might result in striking the Chronograph. Wild ejection should indicate a high pressure issue regardless of the velocity. At least when those test loads are completed, you will have an idea where you are with velocity and feeding and ejecting reliability.
Looking in the manuals, some reloaded cartridges in 9MM are still even shorter, but that might introduce feeding issues. And it will be a few less bullets to pull if it comes to that.
Looking in the manuals, some reloaded cartridges in 9MM are still even shorter, but that might introduce feeding issues. And it will be a few less bullets to pull if it comes to that.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
A mean velocity of 880 FPS is about 200-225 FPS under 9mm power levels in USA-made ammo. It is almost 350 FPS under European 9mm stats. That stuff is way under-powered. FMJ/RN bullets, correct? Pull the lot of them, find a powder level giving 1100 FPS or more, and seat bullets to 1.120" OAL. Set mild taper crimp. Should be good to go, as long as bullet ogive at that OAL gets along with throat leade.
Hawk
Well-Known Member
It's hard to tell what type of powder from the photo.
It looks like it could be a flake powder and might be Unique.
If so, that is a VERY light charge.
I loaded the 9 with Unique and a 115 gr. Plated bullet before and used considerably more.
I can't explain the velocity variations except to wonder, with the relativly loose crimp, could some of the powder have absorbed some moisture?
It looks like it could be a flake powder and might be Unique.
If so, that is a VERY light charge.
I loaded the 9 with Unique and a 115 gr. Plated bullet before and used considerably more.
I can't explain the velocity variations except to wonder, with the relativly loose crimp, could some of the powder have absorbed some moisture?
Ian
Notorious member
If ya keep jacking around with what you have trying to make it work, sooner or later you'll be through all 700 of them and the problem will have solved itself. Considering bullets are what, 20 cents apiece? it seems economical enough to pull them in lots of 50 at a time, resize the brass, and reload them properly.
462
California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
I don't do 9 mm, but agree with Allen and Ian 100 percent. Starting from scratch would waste fewer primers and less powder than trying to make hundreds of grossly inconsistent loads work the gun's action properly, and be accurate, too.
Besides, isn't Alaska about to turn off the sun, for several months, making for a relaxing Winter project?
Besides, isn't Alaska about to turn off the sun, for several months, making for a relaxing Winter project?
462
California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
Glaciers
Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Allen, it's definitely not Unique. Compared to unique, 4227, 2400, Power Pistol, 231, and Bullseye. Going by looks I would call it Bullseye. But I can't count on that.
Ian, I haven't had much time to work on this at all since November 3rd, Armageddon day, until a few minutes yesterday. Today all daylight hours which there's not much of anymore, as 462 points out, where spent in town. But in the morning I will mess with shortening the COAL. Keep in mind that it needs to be daylight and I need to do a little shovel work to set up the crony. It's not like putting on sun screen, walking outside kicking a couple of Armadillo's out of the way and having at it.
I'm just whining.
But if that change does not work I will pull the bullets. As you guys point out there is money in salvaging the bullets and the brass is primed, just needing to be resized. But I will do that, unreliable ammo is worthless, and components are very hard to come by. Looking like ammo and components will stay that way.
So, I have a LEE 6 banger 124 t cone with single lube grove and a NOE 135 grain. Both look good. My question for the group is hard cast with COWW, harder, softer, how much larger over grove dia? I will be powder coating theseas well. Any casting load suggestions would be good. I've never loaded cast for pistols. Matter of fact I've never loaded for semi auto pistols before.
Ian, I haven't had much time to work on this at all since November 3rd, Armageddon day, until a few minutes yesterday. Today all daylight hours which there's not much of anymore, as 462 points out, where spent in town. But in the morning I will mess with shortening the COAL. Keep in mind that it needs to be daylight and I need to do a little shovel work to set up the crony. It's not like putting on sun screen, walking outside kicking a couple of Armadillo's out of the way and having at it.
I'm just whining.
But if that change does not work I will pull the bullets. As you guys point out there is money in salvaging the bullets and the brass is primed, just needing to be resized. But I will do that, unreliable ammo is worthless, and components are very hard to come by. Looking like ammo and components will stay that way.
So, I have a LEE 6 banger 124 t cone with single lube grove and a NOE 135 grain. Both look good. My question for the group is hard cast with COWW, harder, softer, how much larger over grove dia? I will be powder coating theseas well. Any casting load suggestions would be good. I've never loaded cast for pistols. Matter of fact I've never loaded for semi auto pistols before.
Winelover
North Central Arkansas
I use an alloy similar to COWW, that is air cooled, for half dozen different nines. To this day, I've never slugged a barrel. I size all my 9 mm bullets to .3585 diameter. Never had to have a barrel throated, either..................all will chamber .3585 diameter. I have a half dozen different moulds, ranging from 115 to 150 grains. IMO, most useful weight is with the standard weights of 115-125 grains.
Only difference in loading for auto pistols is to use a taper crimp die, rather than a roll crimp. I prefer to crimp in a separate step. I do this extra step in all calibers.
Only difference in loading for auto pistols is to use a taper crimp die, rather than a roll crimp. I prefer to crimp in a separate step. I do this extra step in all calibers.
Charles Graff
Moderator Emeritus
Baggy brand ammo often is poor quality.