Glaciers
Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Ok, I've got to ask what is baggy brand ammo?
9 mm problems
- Thread starter Glaciers
- Start date
Ok, I've got to ask what is baggy brand ammo?
Glaciers
Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
That's what I thought. Can't even find that right now. But it sounds Like the crap ammo I'm trying to salvage right now. I will be testing that suff again in a couple of hours. Hopefully it will workout.
Glaciers
Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Ok got to do a little shooting with adjusted COAL. First these appear to be range pickup brass, versus brands, second there was like 2 out of 10 with slightly high primers, third I would get a failure to extract that would tie up the action. Figured out they were probably fired in a Glock. The base was .392-3 and all others measured.388 or so.
First firing the COAL was minimum length of 1.143 and maximum length was 1.64, quite a spread. Failure to cycle about everytime.
So first I tried a little more crimp which did not do much to help with the FTF issue.
Next I reduced the COAL to 1.135. I was using a LEE seating die and ended up with a spread from 1.128 to 1.138, I believe it might be because of the "o" ring. About half FTF with a slight improvement in velocity and a little improvement in ES.
Then I reduced the COAL to 1.125 using a Hornady seating die which stayed under .007 variance. Velocity was about 25 fps higher on average. With only 1 FTF.
Next I reduced the COAL to 1.110. Velocity average was 967, up 100 fps from start, ES was 94 which was quite an improvement over the 219 at the start. And zero FTF.
So I'm thinking of going shorter by another .001 to 1. 100. Any thoughts? I'm not worried about feeding with these bullets. I also don't expect there to be eye opening improvement, since random brand cases and I'm sure cases are irregular length. My only real expectation with this ammo is for practice. But would like to get up to 1000 fps .
First firing the COAL was minimum length of 1.143 and maximum length was 1.64, quite a spread. Failure to cycle about everytime.
So first I tried a little more crimp which did not do much to help with the FTF issue.
Next I reduced the COAL to 1.135. I was using a LEE seating die and ended up with a spread from 1.128 to 1.138, I believe it might be because of the "o" ring. About half FTF with a slight improvement in velocity and a little improvement in ES.
Then I reduced the COAL to 1.125 using a Hornady seating die which stayed under .007 variance. Velocity was about 25 fps higher on average. With only 1 FTF.
Next I reduced the COAL to 1.110. Velocity average was 967, up 100 fps from start, ES was 94 which was quite an improvement over the 219 at the start. And zero FTF.
So I'm thinking of going shorter by another .001 to 1. 100. Any thoughts? I'm not worried about feeding with these bullets. I also don't expect there to be eye opening improvement, since random brand cases and I'm sure cases are irregular length. My only real expectation with this ammo is for practice. But would like to get up to 1000 fps .
fiver
Well-Known Member
is the powder burning clean?
I think if it were me at this point I'd have to sort through the pile into different HS's and look the primers over.
then work over each batch giving it what it needs to work.
maybe even [ugh] look for a LEE FCD to borrow.
set them to 1.10 [the powder level is really for a 125gr bullet] and shoot e'm.
I think if it were me at this point I'd have to sort through the pile into different HS's and look the primers over.
then work over each batch giving it what it needs to work.
maybe even [ugh] look for a LEE FCD to borrow.
set them to 1.10 [the powder level is really for a 125gr bullet] and shoot e'm.
Winelover
North Central Arkansas
COAL is of secondary importance to me. I use the shorter O-give measurement for 9 mm. COAl will vary depending on bullet style. O-give stays the same. Find out what that measurement is by making dummy rounds and then checking using the plunk test. Manually, cycling them though the action and checking to make sure the length hasn't changed, comparing before and after.
Glaciers
Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Well had a chance today to run a few more through the seating die to shorten these 9's up just a tad more. Went down another .010 to a COAL of 1.100.. Velocity average was 1013fps and ES was still not good but improved again. There's about 6 different case brands so far, so I just don't think it's getting any better than this. No FTF or any other problems.
I'm calling it good on this junk ammo and will use them up getting in a little practice. I picked up a new to me Berreta 92FS and have been very pleased with it. Seems to fit my hand right and easy to hit with.
Next up I want to cast up some from the LEE mold and the NOE mold, but I will be using new brass and not the range pickups. I will be doing a search in the archives and fine a 9mm thread or 2 to read up on.
I must admit that I have enjoyed this Berreta, it is the first semi auto I spent enjoyable time with. That and the AR I put together have been just fun to shoot. I am still a died in the wool blue steel and lumber guy, but this old dog is trying to get with the times and be more inclusive. Well as far as firearms go. Can't get to carried away.
I'm calling it good on this junk ammo and will use them up getting in a little practice. I picked up a new to me Berreta 92FS and have been very pleased with it. Seems to fit my hand right and easy to hit with.
Next up I want to cast up some from the LEE mold and the NOE mold, but I will be using new brass and not the range pickups. I will be doing a search in the archives and fine a 9mm thread or 2 to read up on.
I must admit that I have enjoyed this Berreta, it is the first semi auto I spent enjoyable time with. That and the AR I put together have been just fun to shoot. I am still a died in the wool blue steel and lumber guy, but this old dog is trying to get with the times and be more inclusive. Well as far as firearms go. Can't get to carried away.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
What Brad said, as far as the Lee TC bullet goes. I seat mine with about .020" of front drive band "proud" of the case mouth, set a light taper crimp, and good-to-go. All kinds of powders CAN work in 9mm; I have tried twice this past month to locate Power Pistol for a 45 Auto Rim project I want to try, but the stuff is unobtainium currently.
The 9mm is a lot like a short rifle in terms of pressure level and fast twist rate in most barrels. I treat it like a rifle, and size to throat specs (.357"-.358" most often) and use fairly hard alloys with fairly soft lubes. Powders range from Bullseye to Blue Dot in terms of powder "speeds". They all work at least OK, individual pistols have preferences in my experience and these can vary from bullet to bullet. I cannot over-emphasize the need to sort your brass by maker; variance between makers is wider than with a lot of handgun calibers. My current makes are R-P and Starline, and the R-P is getting long in the tooth and will be scrapped after its next firing.
I REALLY LIKE the Beretta 92 and 96 pistols. They are kinda large for their calibers, but that 4.9" barrel squeezes as much velocity from a load as a pistol barrel can before becoming over-long and awkward.
The 9mm is a lot like a short rifle in terms of pressure level and fast twist rate in most barrels. I treat it like a rifle, and size to throat specs (.357"-.358" most often) and use fairly hard alloys with fairly soft lubes. Powders range from Bullseye to Blue Dot in terms of powder "speeds". They all work at least OK, individual pistols have preferences in my experience and these can vary from bullet to bullet. I cannot over-emphasize the need to sort your brass by maker; variance between makers is wider than with a lot of handgun calibers. My current makes are R-P and Starline, and the R-P is getting long in the tooth and will be scrapped after its next firing.
I REALLY LIKE the Beretta 92 and 96 pistols. They are kinda large for their calibers, but that 4.9" barrel squeezes as much velocity from a load as a pistol barrel can before becoming over-long and awkward.
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Glaciers
Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Well I've heard good things about the Lee TC 124 and I have a 6 cavity an a 2 cavity, so should be able to kick out bullets in rapid order. I happen to have just 1 pound of Power Pistol Which will put together a lot of 9mm, but I was thinking giving 231 a try as I have a lot of it. Well I have a fair amount of other powders that will work.
I do have a NOE 135 grain HP mold that looks promising as well. Hollow pointed weight is 128 grains.
CZ definitely going to run Starline or Winchester brass which I have 1000 of each from the same lot. All the the used brass will be cleaned, sorted, sacked up and put on the shelf. Rainy day stuff. Both of these molds drop at .358 with COWW, thinking about powder coating.
Anyway thanks to all for the tips and advice.
fiver
Well-Known Member
I'd run the 231 more on the upper end.
I tried it more on the lets try to make some 38 special wad cutter loads end and wasn't real happy with the results.
it was like working with 748 in the 303 brits at lighter 30-30 levels.
they all went bang okay, but the on target, and gun functioning results were more blah than hmm.
I tried it more on the lets try to make some 38 special wad cutter loads end and wasn't real happy with the results.
it was like working with 748 in the 303 brits at lighter 30-30 levels.
they all went bang okay, but the on target, and gun functioning results were more blah than hmm.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
WW-231 has done good things for me in 9mm, especially with the heavier-for-caliber bullets. Though I despise the 147 grain "sub-sonic" loads my shop still authorizes, there is ZERO DOUBT about the load's target accuracy. My duplicator load for practice with the 9mm was 4.1 grains of 231 and WSP primers in W-W brass with the surplus 147 grain JHPs by W-W that Midway used to sell in bulk lots. 950 FPS from the SIG P-226 and Ruger P-89.
WW-231 isn't Bullseye, though the two powders get used in similar roles. 231 does poorly when given a lot of space to work in IME. Confine it more closely, and its act cleans up some. It IS a ball powder, just flattened out. I use W-W primers with ball powder, owing to some info posted by C.E. Harris many years ago in American Rifleman. W-W primers contain an aluminum oxide fuel element meant to enhance ignition of the Winchester ball propellants.
WW-231 isn't Bullseye, though the two powders get used in similar roles. 231 does poorly when given a lot of space to work in IME. Confine it more closely, and its act cleans up some. It IS a ball powder, just flattened out. I use W-W primers with ball powder, owing to some info posted by C.E. Harris many years ago in American Rifleman. W-W primers contain an aluminum oxide fuel element meant to enhance ignition of the Winchester ball propellants.
358156 hp
At large, whereabouts unknown.
I had the same experience, 231 in 45 ACP & 38 Spl (for example) was more accurate, and cycling was more positive with higher end loads. My 200 gr H&G load with 231 is actually a slight overload. 38 Spl is a bit over "+P" as well. Not much mind you, but when 231 was changed awhile back I was disappointed with the new generation data and went back to my old ways.
Anybody else remember when 231 was considered the cleanest pistol powder available? Now it's being bashed in some circles as being too dirty to use.
Charles Graff
Moderator Emeritus
9mm accuracy tip: Case lengths vary greatly even on cases with the same headstamp. Sort cases by headstamp, then measure and sort into similar case lengths. Load from batch of same headstamp and length. Accuracy will show a very noticeable improvement. Yes, it takes time.
Winelover
North Central Arkansas
Bought a pound of W 231 to try, when LGS was out of Bullseye, for my nines. Ladder loaded it, various bullets weights/designs, for my CZ carbine. Nothing spectacular, as far as, accuracy is concerned. I tried it in the 44 SPl Bulldog and will probably, use the rest of it up, that way.
Glaciers
Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Well a bit of a disappointing update. I found time to adjust the COAL to 1.050 and use a LEE FC die to smooth the cartridges and tighten up the taper crimp. I went with the FCD after I could push bullets in by pushing against my bench. Next I sorted cartridges by head stamp. Found I had 11 different head stamps. Didn't realize that 9mm had been cross breeding to that extent. Some cases looked rough and all looked like range up's. Well my thought was sorting by brand and shooting a couple of mag's of like ammo would at least tighten up the extreme spread of about 80 fps from a mixed brands to a more reasonable ES.
So off to test on targets and the crony. Well first off the chronograph would not read out. Not enough light. I guess with 4 hours of daylight and living in hills/mountains with trees finely put an end to that. Will need to rig up a alternative light source. But still was having some failure to feed from time to time.
My conclusion is that this is crap ammo period. So I will use it up as practice and toss the brass in a bag for total reworking, full length size, trim and sort. Or maybe recycling to the scrap yard. So I tried and ended up where a lot of you have said I would.
The first time I have ever looked upon "bag ammo" was when my BIL bought a Ruger Security 9 a couple of weeks ago. I made sure he got a sack of ammo with the gun. Keep in mind being a "lever and bolt" guy, I don't go down the semi auto ammo bulk aisles. I stick with the component aisles. The other thing is Alaska is at the "end or the road" unlike fly over country where you have east and west travel and north and south travel, and a larger customer base.
So, I'm going to drag out new brass and work up some cast loads with new stuff of known quantity and quality. The brass, 1000 new Winchester hulls will be checked for overall length before anything else. Also I will be using Unique, 231, and Bullseye and do some ladder tests.
Bullets will be the LEE 105 SWC which weights 111 with my alloy. Next is the LEE 124 TC and then a NOE 135 rdfn bullet with The HP pin in, bullet ends up at 128. I am going to PC these bullets Smoke's Translucent Copper then size to .357 or 358.
I've already cast up a bunch of the 2 LEE bullets and will powder coat today. Still need to cast a few more NOE bullets. Hope to get loaded an testing by next weekend.
I'm started working back over at my BIL's place on the remodel of his basement. Plus yesterday my kitchen sink drains started to leak, and we are expecting more snow this week. Oh did I mention there's only 4 hours of daylight? So hopefully by next weekend. Maybe.
Man I need to move to warm country like Idaho or maybe Arizona. Kinda wondering about Arizona recently. Rant off.
So off to test on targets and the crony. Well first off the chronograph would not read out. Not enough light. I guess with 4 hours of daylight and living in hills/mountains with trees finely put an end to that. Will need to rig up a alternative light source. But still was having some failure to feed from time to time.
My conclusion is that this is crap ammo period. So I will use it up as practice and toss the brass in a bag for total reworking, full length size, trim and sort. Or maybe recycling to the scrap yard. So I tried and ended up where a lot of you have said I would.
The first time I have ever looked upon "bag ammo" was when my BIL bought a Ruger Security 9 a couple of weeks ago. I made sure he got a sack of ammo with the gun. Keep in mind being a "lever and bolt" guy, I don't go down the semi auto ammo bulk aisles. I stick with the component aisles. The other thing is Alaska is at the "end or the road" unlike fly over country where you have east and west travel and north and south travel, and a larger customer base.
So, I'm going to drag out new brass and work up some cast loads with new stuff of known quantity and quality. The brass, 1000 new Winchester hulls will be checked for overall length before anything else. Also I will be using Unique, 231, and Bullseye and do some ladder tests.
Bullets will be the LEE 105 SWC which weights 111 with my alloy. Next is the LEE 124 TC and then a NOE 135 rdfn bullet with The HP pin in, bullet ends up at 128. I am going to PC these bullets Smoke's Translucent Copper then size to .357 or 358.
I've already cast up a bunch of the 2 LEE bullets and will powder coat today. Still need to cast a few more NOE bullets. Hope to get loaded an testing by next weekend.
I'm started working back over at my BIL's place on the remodel of his basement. Plus yesterday my kitchen sink drains started to leak, and we are expecting more snow this week. Oh did I mention there's only 4 hours of daylight? So hopefully by next weekend. Maybe.
Man I need to move to warm country like Idaho or maybe Arizona. Kinda wondering about Arizona recently. Rant off.