AR Rifles
- Thread starter rodmkr
- Start date
fiver
Well-Known Member
after moving on to the Para 1911 double stack, and a CZ-75, I had no remorse about setting that 358477 down on top of 4grains of titegroup and dismantling the 92..
heck I disliked it so much I'd shoot the 2 Norinco type 99's I had rather than that stupid gun, even the one I friction taped the grip panel back on.
Littlegirl managed to move the other one over to her place along with a supply of various ammo when she got married, it generally rides somewhere in her car or her purse anytime she leaves town.
heck I disliked it so much I'd shoot the 2 Norinco type 99's I had rather than that stupid gun, even the one I friction taped the grip panel back on.
Littlegirl managed to move the other one over to her place along with a supply of various ammo when she got married, it generally rides somewhere in her car or her purse anytime she leaves town.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
OK, it is well documented that fiver doesn't care for the Beretta 92. 
While I don't share his view, I don't believe I can change his view .....so moving on......
While I don't share his view, I don't believe I can change his view .....so moving on......
L Ross
Well-Known Member
Never was much of a 9 m/m guy. I didn't care for the S&W 469's our agency switched to. Then we had trouble with the remanufactured ammo we were retraining with. The mixed range pickup brass the reman guy was using had variable neck tension and every 2-300 rounds or so somebody would auto eject their magazine and blow the grip panels off.
The range masters job was a seniority promotion and no real knowledge was required, because after all they got sent to Armorer's School right? Anyway, he came to me and asked if I had an idea why we were having this problem. A half hour in the ammo room pushing bullet noses against the counter top showed him the problem.
When our agency switched to Glocks we were incredibly allowed to choose our own caliber, and I opted out of the 9 scenario.
That said, the buckets of brass and a Magma 38-130-RNFP suggest one be kept in the flock. How do ya' all feel about the High Power? Seems to work okay as an example of the species. I'll never like chasing brass though. Just can't seem to walk away and leave it in the grass. I even pick up the .22 brass and get it recycled. I guess I am my Daddy's offspring.
The range masters job was a seniority promotion and no real knowledge was required, because after all they got sent to Armorer's School right? Anyway, he came to me and asked if I had an idea why we were having this problem. A half hour in the ammo room pushing bullet noses against the counter top showed him the problem.
When our agency switched to Glocks we were incredibly allowed to choose our own caliber, and I opted out of the 9 scenario.
That said, the buckets of brass and a Magma 38-130-RNFP suggest one be kept in the flock. How do ya' all feel about the High Power? Seems to work okay as an example of the species. I'll never like chasing brass though. Just can't seem to walk away and leave it in the grass. I even pick up the .22 brass and get it recycled. I guess I am my Daddy's offspring.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
The 9mm can do good work if your loads are "full value". Downloading it to 38 Special levels in order to get lackluster LE shooters able to qualify without busting the annual ammo budget is counter-productive. <-----Not the first time I've posted this, pardon my PET PEEVE.
fiver
Well-Known Member
not as a carry gun there you want to take advantage of all the speed the 9 offers.
but on the range having the cases consistently spit out about 2' to the right of you is an advantage,
it's a lot easier to find your cases when they are all in a little pile.
the one thing about the 9 that sorta sucks is you never know how much you have until you get pulling the press handle.
your primer supply suddenly disappears while the volume of cases in that flat rate box doesn't seem to change very much.
but on the range having the cases consistently spit out about 2' to the right of you is an advantage,
it's a lot easier to find your cases when they are all in a little pile.
the one thing about the 9 that sorta sucks is you never know how much you have until you get pulling the press handle.
your primer supply suddenly disappears while the volume of cases in that flat rate box doesn't seem to change very much.
Ian
Notorious member
Fortunately, we can be picky.
I agree with Rally very much to the extent that every citizen of age should own at least one example of a firearm chambered for 5.56x45 and 9mm Parabellum. Regarding what brand, well, that's up to the individual. Personally, I encourage folks to consider the Glock 17, although I absolutely will not own one myself for ergonomic and aesthetic reasons. I also do not have ANY 9mm anything in my home, I'm a .45 ACP kind of person for somewhat less than practical (let's call it "religious") reasons based on personal experience, but I assume total responsibility for my own ammunition supply based on that non-NATO choice.
I agree with Rally very much to the extent that every citizen of age should own at least one example of a firearm chambered for 5.56x45 and 9mm Parabellum. Regarding what brand, well, that's up to the individual. Personally, I encourage folks to consider the Glock 17, although I absolutely will not own one myself for ergonomic and aesthetic reasons. I also do not have ANY 9mm anything in my home, I'm a .45 ACP kind of person for somewhat less than practical (let's call it "religious") reasons based on personal experience, but I assume total responsibility for my own ammunition supply based on that non-NATO choice.
RBHarter
West Central AR
92/96/M9 ....... X1 carried an M9 for a while on duty as did my Mom . X1 wore a size 6-8 ring but was 5'10" and had no complaints other than having to keep her left thumb and index nail short to stay off the safety .
Mom shot 1917 Colts , 357 BH , and Star 9mm from 1960 forward , so she could have been issued a drilled truck axle and a hammer and been ok . I got out of Security before the change over , I trained on heavy barreled M10 M&P S&W 38s .
Please don't beat me . ;
9mm/38 Special is a dead heat , particularly with the 38 +P .
Bullet for bullet , that huge .002 dia difference aside , there simply isn't enough , even velocity difference , to quibble over and of course if we put 147s against 158s it actually swings in favor of the 38 ...... But I'm a book numbers guy so grain of salt .
Cut a notch or an 1/8" drill and square on the 92/96/M9 mags and they work fine in BHP and P89DC . Not that I know anyone that has actually done that in both .
Mom shot 1917 Colts , 357 BH , and Star 9mm from 1960 forward , so she could have been issued a drilled truck axle and a hammer and been ok . I got out of Security before the change over , I trained on heavy barreled M10 M&P S&W 38s .
Please don't beat me . ;
9mm/38 Special is a dead heat , particularly with the 38 +P .
Bullet for bullet , that huge .002 dia difference aside , there simply isn't enough , even velocity difference , to quibble over and of course if we put 147s against 158s it actually swings in favor of the 38 ...... But I'm a book numbers guy so grain of salt .
Cut a notch or an 1/8" drill and square on the 92/96/M9 mags and they work fine in BHP and P89DC . Not that I know anyone that has actually done that in both .
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
Not to disparage either the 38 Special or the 9mm Luger, they are both awesome cartridges. However, there are bigger differences between the 38 Special and 9mm beyond the .002" difference in nominal diameter.
The 9mm was born as a high pressure cartridge and does its best work with bullets in the 115-125 grain range. When you put 147 grain bullets in 9mm casings, you turn it into a rimless 38 Special (not that the 38 Special is a bad cartridge - it is not!)
The 38 Special +P can do far better work than it is often credited for. I think it gets unfairly compared to the .357 Magnum and people look down upon the 38 Special as "it's just a 38 Special". This is an unfair view.
A 9mm 125grain jacketed HP travelling in the neighborhood of 1200 fps is no joke.
A 158 gr 38 Special LSWCHP driven at +P velocities is no joke.
Given the right load, both of those cartridges are more than capable.
For decades, the 9mm Luger cartridge suffered from the "It's not American" syndrome and the 38 Special suffered from the "it's not a magnum" syndrome.
The 9mm was born as a high pressure cartridge and does its best work with bullets in the 115-125 grain range. When you put 147 grain bullets in 9mm casings, you turn it into a rimless 38 Special (not that the 38 Special is a bad cartridge - it is not!)
The 38 Special +P can do far better work than it is often credited for. I think it gets unfairly compared to the .357 Magnum and people look down upon the 38 Special as "it's just a 38 Special". This is an unfair view.
A 9mm 125grain jacketed HP travelling in the neighborhood of 1200 fps is no joke.
A 158 gr 38 Special LSWCHP driven at +P velocities is no joke.
Given the right load, both of those cartridges are more than capable.
For decades, the 9mm Luger cartridge suffered from the "It's not American" syndrome and the 38 Special suffered from the "it's not a magnum" syndrome.
Jäger
Active Member
Finest mass produced full size fighting handgun for one-size-fits-all issue ever built as far as fit and natural pointing in the hand goes, with a few provisos.
The original sights prior to the MKII and MKIII were characteristic of that time, but far too small, as modern sight size shows. The MMC I had installed shortly after obtaining the pistol was okay for young man eyes, but even then should have been bigger. Only other option I recall back in the 70's was gunsmiths would mill the slide to fit a S&W rear sight - and I would now say that is also smaller than optimal sight size.
No longer manufactured by FN, so that's an issue, but the Turkish manufacturer who has stepped into the breach is apparently making clones good enough that most of the High Power gurus willingly do work/customization on them and say the metallurgy and fit is good. I have never laid hands on one so I don't know if the Turks cloned the original HP, or the slightly bigger MkII and MkIII. The MkII and MkIII also feel very good and natural pointing in the hand, but they definitely don't feel as svelte and perfectly balanced in the hand as the original HPs.
No means to mount a light as is from the manufacturer; gunsmithing required, and that is an issue for the many police (and civilians) who expect to mount a light. The Residential Sergeant Major demanded laser grips for her HP after she rejected the inexpensive Glock I purchased and hoped she would be happy with <sigh> and shoot well enough with. I used to dismiss the idea of lasers on handguns as not adding much - until we got lasers to mount on our rifles in the military. And tried her HP with the laser grip. I have definitely come around on the laser issue.
I bought the Kimber Micro Nine Crimson Carry for skimpy clothing carry specifically because shooting her HP with the laser sold me. Just haven't got there yet with the HP - the Crimson Trace laser grips feel clunky in the hand on a HP when compared to the thin Craig Spegal boot grips that Uncle Mike's made under license (also now selling at prices that are through the roof). The RSM thinks they feel just fine and she shoots just fine with them... but I'm not there yet.
And of course, if you're choosing a handgun for some agency, the manufacturing costs of a HP versus something like a Glock completely take it out of the running. Both for initial purchase (complete with the usual Glock trade in deals dangled in front of the purchasing agent noses) and for service afterwards. You can argue the longevity of HPs all you want - an agency can probably buy two or maybe even three Glocks for the same price.
So the High Power becomes a handgun of personal choice these days. And the days of very inexpensive police hand-ins from Europe, Israel, etc seem to have ended three or four years ago.
No more $200 HPs from Cole's etc. with nothing but holster wear. The perfect platform for a personalized HP: no shortage of gun plumbers that would install something like Novak sights, clean 'er up, replace all the springs to ensure it functions as intended, a cerokote job or something similar, grab some Mag-pul 15 round magazines, you were probably out the door for under $500.
From our first day with our S&W Model 10s, probably like many agencies were doing by then, when you opened the cylinder to reload, the brass dropped free of the cylinder to the ground (or the grass), not into your hand. So you ended up policing up your brass off the firing point anyways. It was a little closer together, of course.
On that point, HPs that I have don't fling the brass around in all directions with wild abandon; it pretty much ends up clustered together in the same place. Being in the Senior Citizen category and thinking maybe I won't get laughed at, I'm tempted to buy one of those wire basket thingies to pick up my brass (and grab the brass left by others), but my wife says I have enough trouble bending over already, and more bending and stretching to pick stuff up is exactly what I need...
Now my Dan Wesson CBOB with Bear Wrench loads from Underwood - that brass gets launched into low earth orbit. I don't shoot much of it... just enough to remain familiar with it while mostly practicing with less stout reloads.
Jäger
Active Member
It isn't my pet peeve (but getting there) that current 9mm service ammunition supposedly gives either "lackluster" performance in police service, or can lead to lackluster shooting LE members.
The 9mm (and other service cartridges) are discussed as though there has been no developments in service ammunition over the last 20, 30, 40 years. We would not discuss cast bullet technique and developments in the same way. There have been enormous changes, mostly because of the work of Fackler (recently passed away) and others who specialize in terminal ballistics, inside and outside government, working with ammunition companies fighting it out for law enforcement contracts.
As a general rule, having had the experience of being trained and then sent out to train first LE, and then after that military, generally when you have lackluster performance with ANY issued individual small arm, it's because you have a lackluster training program - or an agency that allows lackluster trainers. Which, BTW, in this day of slip and fall liability lawyers drooling at the chance to sue an enforcement agency, is a pretty incredible risk scenario for an agency and their insurers and lawyers to willingly accept.
462
California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
Naw, it doesn't start with a "4".REAL MEN SHOOT A TEN!!!
Oh, wait . . . yep, it does. If you look at it the other way round.
Ian
Notorious member
Makes for good conversation. None of us are going to change our opinions based on internet babbling, but it passes the time in an interesting way.
Trooper Bret will be the first to rightly point out that none of the detractors of "pipsqueak" chamberings will volunteer to prove their point by standing in front of one.
Trooper Bret will be the first to rightly point out that none of the detractors of "pipsqueak" chamberings will volunteer to prove their point by standing in front of one.
Jäger
Active Member
I'll dispute that. And so will the people whose profession is terminal ballistics, and who look at more police shooting reports and autopsy reports in a week than most police agencies will in a year. Ditto for gun writer pundits. Dr. Fackler (passed away a couple of years ago), Dr. Roberts, etc and others have been in the terminal ballistics profession concerning service ammunition and it's development for roughly four decades. Roberts, as one, still is involved the last I heard.
147 gr service ammunition from Federal, Speer, Winchester, etc turns in similar results as other 9mm bullet weights, whether standard pressure loadings or +P. It isn't in the slightest bit handicapped by not being in the 115-125 gr. range. There are multiple reasons for that: developments in propellant powders, engineering of bullet designs, etc.
But wait... if the 9mm originated as a high pressure cartridge with the specific weights you mentioned, then surely we have to also remember that the .38 Spl didn't originate with those +P loads. It was something like a 158 gr. round nose doing about 880 fps out of a 6" barrel, wasn't it? If we are to stick with original loadings, then we should be also sticking with the 158 gr. round nose in the .38 Spl.
Now we're on the same page in agreement. Just add the 147 gr (and the new 135 gr) service ammunition from Federal, Winchester, etc and we're about right. I believe that is currently an established real world fact from the ammunition development/LE world, not just an opinion.
Still do.
The .38 Spl. also suffers from one other thing: after being abandoned by police agencies, there's minimal time and money put into the continued R&D for .38 Spl. service/self defense ammunition for sale to the public.
The number of people that choose a resolver for self defense, whether a snubby or something bigger, is completely dwarfed by the LE agency and civilian markets in the auto pistol service calibers. As a result, modern .38 Spl ammunition is not at the performance level it would be by now if it were still among the service calibers being used by LE agencies. The allotment of R&D time and money to various calibers leaves the .38 Spl. mostly neglected, sucking the hind tit.
And in the same vein, 9mm is making the greatest technological gains, versus .45 ACP, .357 SIG, and.40 S&W, simply because LE agencies issuing 9mm have become the vast majority of that market. So that's where the majority of the potential service ammunition market profit is for Federal, Speer, etc. And so, they devote proportionately greater R&D time and expenses to 9mm, compared to that which they allot to the other calibers.
That's not an assumption on my part; that's from both the head engineers at several of those companies and from Dr. Gary Roberts, after working with both the federal government as well as individual police agencies and ammunition manufacturers. It logically makes sense to me that would have an effect on the amount of advancement in performance service ammunition will have among the calibers as you look at your choices in service/self defense ammunition sitting on the store shelves for sale to the public.
I carry 9mms by choice: that's with assorted flavors of .40 S&W, .38 Spl. and .357 Magnum, and 10mm to choose from. I've been carrying HST 147 standard pressure ammunition for years now after some of our Close Protection guys were sent to one of ATK's ballistics seminars where they were able to watch and shoot at pretty much anything with anything resembling service ammunition, and brought the results of all that back. As of today, perhaps there's now something in 9mm service ammunition that is now measurably better. For now I'm happy assuming any improvements in 9mm in the last few years are pretty minuscule if anything, and I'm no worse off continuing with what I'm currently using.
However, if somebody told me I was restricted to using .38 Spl LSWCHP ammunition for the rest of my life, I would not lose one minute of sleep or suddenly feel inadequately equipped for Bad Guys Happening. If you're using some sort of service ammunition, performance differences are a tiny percentage of the issues involved.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
The Browning HP was/is an excellent pistol but as much as I respect it, the design has been eclipsed.
Single action, all steel, rather heavy by today's standards, complicated trigger linkage and as pointed out; costly to manufacture.
The design was outstanding but time marches on.
I think the single action trigger prevented the Hi-Power from being a serious contender in the LE world. The Hi-Power did hold on in NATO for a long time and it served its users well.
Single action, all steel, rather heavy by today's standards, complicated trigger linkage and as pointed out; costly to manufacture.
The design was outstanding but time marches on.
I think the single action trigger prevented the Hi-Power from being a serious contender in the LE world. The Hi-Power did hold on in NATO for a long time and it served its users well.