AR Rifles
- Thread starter rodmkr
- Start date
Jäger
Active Member
As a Bear Wrench choice in a semi-auto. Got that covered with the CBOB...It’s like watching a Finnish rally car driver! The drifting is so exciting!!!
REAL MEN SHOOT A TEN!!!
A 9mm otherwise.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
One of the great fallacies of evaluating the performance of a cartridge is looking at autopsy results. When someone is trying to harm you, it matters not IF they die. What matters at that little sliver of time is if they stop trying to harm you and how quickly they stop trying to harm you. Now, that does often result in death, but death isn't the goal or the yardstick. Stopping the fight is the goal.
I don't think there's any credible evidence that current 115-125 gr 9mm jacketed hollowpoints are lacking in their ability as self-defense cartridges. The American fascination with "bigger is better" drives a lot of the loyalty for the slow 147 grain 9mm projectiles. (if 115 grains is good, 147 grains MUST be better) .
There's no dispute the 147 grain projectiles can penetrate well and they are often very accurate, but they are also correspondingly slow. If you're looking for a high capacity 38 Special with a short little rimless cartridge, then the 147 gr 9mm is for you.
I'm not eager to get shot with anything but I'll stick with the 115-125grain jacketed HP 9mm for serious social situations. You can put whatever you like in your pistol.
BTW, the 147 gr 9mm was originally a subsonic round developed for use in suppressed weapons and it got drafted into SD work in the early days of the "Wonder Nine" era. I didn't like it then and I don't like now.
SO, like fiver, we've now documented someone else's dislike for something.
Jäger
Active Member
Or perhaps, we've been convinced that it isn't as good a design as one that can be dropped from a 1000' AGL and still function (even if the guy holding the pistol can't). Or other criteria that are now advanced with assurances that they're critically important.
Over 40 years, I was issued an incredible amount of stuff I was told was WAY better than the current design I had, because it had some new, nifty essential feature. Obviously a lot of it was in fact better. And some of it was, at best, really no better.
You can't make an honest argument for the HP versus something as inexpensive and equally as reliable as a Glock. And I've never tried.
However, whether you think an HP is more complicated than some of the various other trigger mechanism designs on various flavors of auto pistols out there, put that debate aside for the moment. The trigger mechanism of the HP hasn't been found to be non-reliable, demanding of regular attention from military and LE armourers in it's roughly 80 years of service. If it there was a trigger functionality weakness, the entire world would know if it by now. Like other Commonwealth military weapons, we'd be into Mk1, Mk1*, etc by now in design changes.
I'm willing to allow somebody to try and change my mind that a single action trigger is a handicap on a service handgun when it isn't a handicap on a service rifle or shotgun.
I don't think it is. Ditto for the fact that a HP has a manual safety switch and Glocks and others don't - but safeties on service rifles and shotguns are not the slightest problem for LE or the military.
Lack of double strike capability is a handicap? For either an HP or any other service pistol that doesn't have that? Is there any real world data to establish how many times double strike capability has been a factor in LE/military/self defense shootings? Enough to make it statistically relevant?
And there is the weight. That can be batted around for a while. Weight versus after lights and stuff hung off some service pistols? And how much difference does the weight make, given the total weight of all the weaponry and goodies hung from LE duty belts these days? Or a soldier dressed in full battle rattle?
It is still in the LE world - just not in North America. And as observed above, it's a good thing single action triggers aren't a prohibition in the LE world, because most of the rifles, carbines, and shotguns in use today would simply not pass that prohibition. I believe a proper single action trigger of proper weight enhances the user's ability to hit what they're aiming at, while double action triggers diminish it to some degree.
That said, I have no doubt the HP will disappear, other than from the hands of a very few officers within the very few agencies that allow a wide latitude of choices. And their numbers will be minuscule.
Still serves in more than a few places as a general issue pistol. Canada for example still issues the HP as general issue, while regularly announcing to NATO for several decades they're going to replace it soon.
The reality (irrespective of the HP) is that general infantry and other arms rarely actually use a pistol in combat. We train, teach transition drills, etc. But if you sorted through the hundreds of thousands of AARs since 9/11, you would find a very tiny number of instances where a pistol was used instead of a carbine or rifle. You'd find more instances of a shotgun being the weapon that was used.
Now the door kickers... that's a very, very different scenario.
BBerguson
Official Pennsyltuckian
I bought a 10mm after talking my son out of it and into a 45acp. After seeing how good his 1911 shot, we decided to get one in 10mm. It’s a Rock Island Armory 1911 and easier to handle than the Glock 30sf in 45acp (which we sold). But, talk about a brass thrower, have to be careful when planes are flying over!
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Jäger
Active Member
It would be an equally great fallacy to believe or imply that those in the profession of terminal ballistics and R&D of service ammunition only look at autopsy reports, while not bothering to look at ALL reports resulting out of police shootings.
Reading testing and R&D documentation, both are considered. As you pointed out, the agencies in the market for the service ammunition are solely concerned with how effective ammunition is with stopping the threat. Not whether or not the assailant is dead - in fact, given their druthers, they'd much prefer them to survive for a long list of reasons.
No there isn't. Just as there's no credible evidence that a current 147 grain bullet out of a 9mm becomes a meek .38 Spl round. Nor credible evidence that 115-125 gr. ammunition from the same companies, invariably of the same bullet design, performs one iota better.
Possibly for some. For many others, there are many other criteria involved that have nothing to do with weights of bullets - or the size of the hole in the end of the barrel for that matter.
That is another internet myth, that often appears to accompany the one that if the bullet is slower and faster, then it MUST have better terminal ballistics performance.
Slow has nothing to do with it, any more than arguing that 115-125 grain bullets are less effective because their speed doesn't make up for their lack of momentum of a 147 grain bullet. The bullets are R&D'ed to perform in the velocity envelope they are expected to impact at.
And, as observed earlier, there is no credible body of evidence from the real world that modern 147 gr. 9mm service ammunition does not measure up to the performance level of lighter 9mm bullets.
As in many other things in life, facts don't care about either our feelings or opinions. But we're in a good place when we all can make our choices no matter what we base those choices on
Joshua
Taco Aficionado/Salish Sea Pirate/Part-Time Dragon
I think it is gonna drift into a discussion about the merits of the .30 Mauser Long Rifle cartridge, in the AR platform. Better known as the 300 MLR
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Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
Never attempted that argument.
I didn't say it was unreliable, demanding of attention or any of that.
The Hi-Power trigger works but the direction of force changes about 4 times before the force reaches the sear, Does it work? - Yep. is it an elegant design? - well I've seen simpler.
I have my doubts that you are VERY willing ..........
I never even MENTIONED double strike capability. And I don't care about double strike capability. If the damn round didn't go bang the first time, it probably will not go bang with a second strike. You're far better off just getting it out of the chamber as fast as you can and getting a live round in there.
Because a reduction in weight in one item may allow for the increase in weight somewhere else. It is the straw that broke the camels back. Weight IS important and it adds up.
Wow, you really are hung up on the single action trigger comparison with long arms.
Joshua
Taco Aficionado/Salish Sea Pirate/Part-Time Dragon
It could also drift into an analysis and comparison of the parallel paths that both metallic cartridge and popular music have traversed over most of the last century.
It would essentially be a study of Robert Johnson vs Jack White, compared to the development of the 7.65mm Borchardt vs the development of the 300MLR.
At it’s core the analysis would consider the deeper intrinsic meaning of creative style as it relates to true innovation and change.
Josh
Or we could just talk about tacos, everyone loves tacos.
Jäger
Active Member
I have my doubts that you are VERY willing ..........
Well, go ahead and give it a shot; rational, fact based debates versus opinion and "everybody knows" are enlightening to all sides if nothing else.
Well, after jumping and humping a ruck (which kept getting more capacity, which was then ordered to be filled with more heavy stuff due to the increased room) for 30 years, I'm personally very experienced with that. I also observed during all that time in uniform that very little effort has been put into either lightening LE duty belts or military battle rattle by even the difference in weight between a HP or similar pistol, never mind some REAL weight savings.
If they could find a way to add a few inches to every LEO's duty belt - they would then give them something more to put on that belt and tell them to carry it. More than a few agencies are now seen with their tasers hung off a drop leg holster because there is no room left on the duty belt for them.
I'd like to think there's a trend to lightening an LEO's duty belt load or a soldiers' battle rattle by even the few ounces of difference between handguns, but I have yet to see it. In fact, my personal belief after 4 decades is that the opposite is true - the load invariably increases as soon as there's a new tool available in the profession or more space becomes available to carry more stuff.
The average LEO when I started had a leather duty belt with a S&W 4" Model 10 in a simple leather holster, with some sort of arrangement for another 6 rounds, a pair of cuffs in a cuff case, and a belt ring to hold a flashlight or baton and a Motorola. Speedloaders came along; add a couple of speedloader pouches; that was it. Now the service handguns are heavier, much more additional ammo, assorted flavours of baton, OC spray, tasers, knives lights, etc. The only compensation is that the lights and the radios have gotten lighter.
No more than some are hung up on a few ounces of weight in a service handgun - or the comparative speed and weight of two different bullets in a given caliber. Or for that matter, whether or not a handgun has a single action trigger...
462
California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
Josh,
Is the case on the right a 30MLR?
It sure looks like the mysterious 8 mm Mauser case that a guy had picked up at the range, and showed me.
Joshua
Taco Aficionado/Salish Sea Pirate/Part-Time Dragon
Ok, so I’ve been having some fun today. 300MLR is a joke/nickname for the 300 blackout!
The cartridge on the left is a 300 blackout. The cartridge on the right is a 7.62x25mm Tokarev, which was based on and is externaly almost identical too the 7.63x25mm Mauser(also known as .30 Mauser), which was developed from the 7.65x25mm Borchardt, externally almost identical.
Borchardt based his cartridge on a scaled down version of the 7x57mm Mauser. It was the first of its kind. The base of the Borchardt measures .388” The base of the .222 Remington measures .376”.
The .222 is acknowledged as the parent case of both the .223 and the .300 blackout.
A quote from Wikipedia
“The .222 Remington, also known as the triple deuce, triple two, and treble two, is a centerfire rifle cartridge. Introduced in 1950, it was the first commercial rimless .22 (5.56 mm) cartridge made in the United States. As such, it was an entirely new design, without a parent case.”
The folks at Remington were well aware of the .30 Mauser, because they loaded factory ammunition for it.
Well maybe the .222 Rem was an original design, and maybe it wasn’t a completely original design.
The majority of our commonly used bottle neck cartridges trace their roots back to the 1889 introduction of the 7.65x53mm Spanish Mauser, which was quickly followed by the 7x57mm Mauser.
It seems to me that the 300 Blackout is in someway the long lost grandchild of the 7.65x25mm Borchardt.
And, that’s how I came up with 300MLR.
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462
California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
Thanks, Josh.
I thought the case on the left might be a .300 Blackout.
Regarding the 7.62X25, once had a CZ-52, but sold it so long ago I forgot what the case looked like. It was the weirdest pointing handgun, seemingly designed to shoot at a bad guy's knees instead of center mass, and it sent brass sailing all the way to Hollister. (It would have tossed brass Aromas, but the firing line faces North and Hollister East.)
I thought the case on the left might be a .300 Blackout.
Regarding the 7.62X25, once had a CZ-52, but sold it so long ago I forgot what the case looked like. It was the weirdest pointing handgun, seemingly designed to shoot at a bad guy's knees instead of center mass, and it sent brass sailing all the way to Hollister. (It would have tossed brass Aromas, but the firing line faces North and Hollister East.)
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
Don't you just love comments like this? An observation coupled with an incorrect conclusion.
"........because there is no room left on the duty belt for them." ???
The author ASSUMES the item is carried in a drop leg holster BECAUSE there is no room for it on the belt - it couldn't possibly be the choice of the user.......
The first part is an accurate observation, "More than a few agencies are now seen with their tasers hung off a drop leg holster......"
But then the speculation kicks in, ".....because there is no room left on the duty belt for them."
I guess the possibility that the user simply chose to use a drop leg holster couldn't possibly be the reason for that gear??
Sort of like saying "He carries a pistol in a leather holster..........because everyone knows zombies hate leather"
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JonB
Halcyon member
Funny you mention that, I was just explaining to someone about working up a load for my RIA 1911 (in 38 super), that I used "case throwing" as more of my guide, than accuracy. Accuracy for pistol shooting distances was fine with that gun and bullet and powder, with all the loads in the load range I was testing, but case throwing varied greatly, so I chose a load that threw most all of them near the same distance...and not too far... DANG, the hotter leads were launching them to the moon.I bought a 10mm after talking my son out of it and into a 45acp. After seeing how good his 1911 shot, we decided to get one in 10mm. It’s a Rock Island Armory 1911 and easier to handle than the Glock 30sf in 45acp (which we sold). But, talk about a brass thrower, have to be careful when planes are flying over!
> I suppose a stronger spring is needed to help with that if I want HOT loads? right?
Ian
Notorious member
No, Jon, that is a common misconception. The recoil spring on a 1911 is ONLY for returning the slide to battery, not absorbing slide inertia.. the hammer spring is what's supposed to control the slide. What you need for hotter loads is a firing pin stop with a smaller radius on the bottom. The smaller radius puts the slide recoil force closer to the pivot point of the hammer, making for less mechanical advantage ( and makes the slide more difficult to rack, too, which is why many 1911s have too much radius).