Dang it....mould shopping
- Thread starter Intheshop
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Was in loading room early today. Ran some more weight checking on these 309-150's. Dang tight tolerances is all I can say. Reckon it's worth weight checking if you were in competition but,these are ridiculously close.
The other check was on the bore riding section....there is no taper. It is a straight .301 all the way to the first drive band. Here's where it gets interesting though. Going over a dz or more bullets,mainly as a quality check but to a certain degree(ha) to keep handling contact to a minimum for any unexpected heat related changes to very close measures..... it keeps measuring the same,the first drive band(closest to nose) comes in @.3095....The last band,near the GC is @.3105. So,it's a tapered mold.
Don't think the mold/design could be any shorter if looking for a "jam". Will play around with no changes on bore ride section.... can always bump it up a tiny bit.
Haven't loaded any for the old R700 308VS yet.Going to try it in a few '06's first. Ain't holding the breath on the VS. It comes from a time period when Remington was cutting looong throats in their 308's. It was made back when everyone started getting all BC concerns and going with longer bullets in competition....also about this time,Remington got a new gaggle of lawyers? and were stretching these throats way out.
Which,interestingly is how and why I got the rifle. Previous owner had issue with the throat. I bought it and 2 scopes for cheap money..... mainly to get the action and the HS stock. But found that my old Lyman 311041 as cast,fit the throat peachy. Got a feeling the 150 Lee isn't.
The other check was on the bore riding section....there is no taper. It is a straight .301 all the way to the first drive band. Here's where it gets interesting though. Going over a dz or more bullets,mainly as a quality check but to a certain degree(ha) to keep handling contact to a minimum for any unexpected heat related changes to very close measures..... it keeps measuring the same,the first drive band(closest to nose) comes in @.3095....The last band,near the GC is @.3105. So,it's a tapered mold.
Don't think the mold/design could be any shorter if looking for a "jam". Will play around with no changes on bore ride section.... can always bump it up a tiny bit.
Haven't loaded any for the old R700 308VS yet.Going to try it in a few '06's first. Ain't holding the breath on the VS. It comes from a time period when Remington was cutting looong throats in their 308's. It was made back when everyone started getting all BC concerns and going with longer bullets in competition....also about this time,Remington got a new gaggle of lawyers? and were stretching these throats way out.
Which,interestingly is how and why I got the rifle. Previous owner had issue with the throat. I bought it and 2 scopes for cheap money..... mainly to get the action and the HS stock. But found that my old Lyman 311041 as cast,fit the throat peachy. Got a feeling the 150 Lee isn't.
Ian
Notorious member
Not really, the taper that particular bullet has is in the place where it doesn't matter. Did you study the drawing I put up on the first page and note the deficiencies of the Barlow design for HV? I do think we're having a failure to communicate, maybe I don't follow you too well with what you are trying to do.
The way I see it....
1- meplat
2-ogive
3-bore ride section
4-body
5-GC area
Then within each one of those would be sub categories. #4 on this 309-150 is tapered. Whether that is optimum would depend on certain specifics..... for me it probably is going to work because; I only "size" to get the GC crimped and basically run zero lube. Not sayin it's the end all,far from it....could be useless.
#3 on this mold drops straight,no taper. It happens to be pretty durn close @.301 so it chambers easily. If however.... say it needed to be bumped up,my experience is it can be done in one of two ways....and possibly more. One way is a D reamed top punch that maintains existing ogive profile and shoves metal down the bore ride section to create a taper. Have done 3 this way*. The other way is to use a factory top punch that is larger than the object ogive.... this puts a larger section on the bore ride,nearer the nose. It's a reverse taper. This can also be looked at as an initiated slump(for HV).... that I presumed was happening anyway on certain long nose designs when hit with 40k psi. It works well.
*The issues with making D reamers is the time involved and risks during heat treat. It is for these reasons I'm going with a different style of nose sizer. In effect.... it's faster to ream a through hole than a blind hole.... irrespective of whether the through hole is straight or tapered(conventional taper,can't reverse it,but that's done differently anyway). There's at least one other reason to go with this new nose sizer besides speed.... but that's just my gut feeling and will share if it shows up or not and is tangential to the main goal of speed.
1- meplat
2-ogive
3-bore ride section
4-body
5-GC area
Then within each one of those would be sub categories. #4 on this 309-150 is tapered. Whether that is optimum would depend on certain specifics..... for me it probably is going to work because; I only "size" to get the GC crimped and basically run zero lube. Not sayin it's the end all,far from it....could be useless.
#3 on this mold drops straight,no taper. It happens to be pretty durn close @.301 so it chambers easily. If however.... say it needed to be bumped up,my experience is it can be done in one of two ways....and possibly more. One way is a D reamed top punch that maintains existing ogive profile and shoves metal down the bore ride section to create a taper. Have done 3 this way*. The other way is to use a factory top punch that is larger than the object ogive.... this puts a larger section on the bore ride,nearer the nose. It's a reverse taper. This can also be looked at as an initiated slump(for HV).... that I presumed was happening anyway on certain long nose designs when hit with 40k psi. It works well.
*The issues with making D reamers is the time involved and risks during heat treat. It is for these reasons I'm going with a different style of nose sizer. In effect.... it's faster to ream a through hole than a blind hole.... irrespective of whether the through hole is straight or tapered(conventional taper,can't reverse it,but that's done differently anyway). There's at least one other reason to go with this new nose sizer besides speed.... but that's just my gut feeling and will share if it shows up or not and is tangential to the main goal of speed.
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OK,different mould.... in this case the #3 above is too big. The ability to quickly swap or adjust this section is what I'm after. Several ways to do it but,I can't keep going back spending time and associated risks involved grinding reamers as test monkeys.
The new style should let me go from straight to any degree of taper,fairly quickly.
The new style should let me go from straight to any degree of taper,fairly quickly.
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Ian
Notorious member
There's no mystery to it.
Ream the through-hole .002" smaller than the full bore dimension at the end of the throat taper, call that measurement A.
Measure the taper of the rifle's throat (pound cast, precision measurements, and some basic trig), call that angle A.
Measure the throat entrance diameter, deduct .0005", call that measurement B.
Turn and polish your D-reamer with a pilot that's a full .001" smaller than your measurement A.
Grind/turn/file a taper that matches angle A.
Turn the reamer shank above the angle down to exactly measurement B, with enough length to sink the bullet past the gas check in the die and allow for some die entrance taper. Grind the D part away on the taper and measurement B part of the reamer shank only.
Relieve the back side of the reamer and put a rough edge on the cutting side the usual way.
Heat the reamer to a medium-orange and oil-quench. Put in an oven at 400F for an hour and slow-cool.
Turn an ejector pin to .001" smaller than your actual dimension A and bore the end to match your bullet nose profile exactly, full-depth (razor edge around the cup).
Stone the edge and cut your die. Polish to 600-grit, wax the inside, and check your work with a bullet.
Now you will have a die that draws the bullet to fill the throat and still have the very tip of the nose "riding the lands" (total misnomer, it's like sliding down a razor blade, i.e. no effective guidance/support at HV) but it will allow the bullet to chamber easily.
Seat the bullet 10-20 thousandths off of the ball seat so it can get a head start and has a little wiggle room to self-align.
Ream the through-hole .002" smaller than the full bore dimension at the end of the throat taper, call that measurement A.
Measure the taper of the rifle's throat (pound cast, precision measurements, and some basic trig), call that angle A.
Measure the throat entrance diameter, deduct .0005", call that measurement B.
Turn and polish your D-reamer with a pilot that's a full .001" smaller than your measurement A.
Grind/turn/file a taper that matches angle A.
Turn the reamer shank above the angle down to exactly measurement B, with enough length to sink the bullet past the gas check in the die and allow for some die entrance taper. Grind the D part away on the taper and measurement B part of the reamer shank only.
Relieve the back side of the reamer and put a rough edge on the cutting side the usual way.
Heat the reamer to a medium-orange and oil-quench. Put in an oven at 400F for an hour and slow-cool.
Turn an ejector pin to .001" smaller than your actual dimension A and bore the end to match your bullet nose profile exactly, full-depth (razor edge around the cup).
Stone the edge and cut your die. Polish to 600-grit, wax the inside, and check your work with a bullet.
Now you will have a die that draws the bullet to fill the throat and still have the very tip of the nose "riding the lands" (total misnomer, it's like sliding down a razor blade, i.e. no effective guidance/support at HV) but it will allow the bullet to chamber easily.
Seat the bullet 10-20 thousandths off of the ball seat so it can get a head start and has a little wiggle room to self-align.
25g H4198 is 1/2g over Lyman 4th ed. starting load(they use IMR).
They functioned.... and can't get in too big a hurry cause,I did do some barrel and chamber cleaning prior to the 3 shot group. Nuthin to speak of group wise @100 but.....
Studying the cases, Fed primer backed out,something I just don't like because it usually means the case just got shortened. Once this happens, there's a pretty well respected theory that these cases are,maybe not ruined but,got to be dang careful from there on out using full power loads in these cases.
So,the case got shoved fwd,expanded.... and because of the squeaky clean chamber and case,never slid back against bolt face.
I'm sayin,there wasn't enough pressure to get the bullet in it's happy zone. Book is sayin around 18k psi. Maybe add a touch to that because of the lite jam. Back to the bench,added .020" more jam.... which is the limit on OAL because of how much bullet is in the case. Same crimp. Same lube. Going with 28g....
They functioned.... and can't get in too big a hurry cause,I did do some barrel and chamber cleaning prior to the 3 shot group. Nuthin to speak of group wise @100 but.....
Studying the cases, Fed primer backed out,something I just don't like because it usually means the case just got shortened. Once this happens, there's a pretty well respected theory that these cases are,maybe not ruined but,got to be dang careful from there on out using full power loads in these cases.
So,the case got shoved fwd,expanded.... and because of the squeaky clean chamber and case,never slid back against bolt face.
I'm sayin,there wasn't enough pressure to get the bullet in it's happy zone. Book is sayin around 18k psi. Maybe add a touch to that because of the lite jam. Back to the bench,added .020" more jam.... which is the limit on OAL because of how much bullet is in the case. Same crimp. Same lube. Going with 28g....
OK,28g.....
The extra. 020" OAL chambered fine. Primer behaved. Case didn't shorten.
3 went into 1/2" wide by 1" tall 3 shot group. The line of 3 shots almost always run from 1:00 to 7:00 for me,with sporters..... this is just the nature of skinny barrels and slim forends. This rig repeated that tendency.
With a little more work on bullet fit.... maybe a more open top punch and smack it harder during GC seating....this load could be a decent competition load. But,that isn't where I'm headed. Will go 30g of H4198 next....Maybe later today.
The wind is picking up and....sounds like an excuse but,this Luepold VXII 3-9X40 is not as nice as the B&L 3-9 on my 7-08. Same size scopes..... just no comparison how much clearer the B&L is to my eyes. The trigger on the CDL is still newish @3 3/4# which ain't bad.... mainly just new.
The extra. 020" OAL chambered fine. Primer behaved. Case didn't shorten.
3 went into 1/2" wide by 1" tall 3 shot group. The line of 3 shots almost always run from 1:00 to 7:00 for me,with sporters..... this is just the nature of skinny barrels and slim forends. This rig repeated that tendency.
With a little more work on bullet fit.... maybe a more open top punch and smack it harder during GC seating....this load could be a decent competition load. But,that isn't where I'm headed. Will go 30g of H4198 next....Maybe later today.
The wind is picking up and....sounds like an excuse but,this Luepold VXII 3-9X40 is not as nice as the B&L 3-9 on my 7-08. Same size scopes..... just no comparison how much clearer the B&L is to my eyes. The trigger on the CDL is still newish @3 3/4# which ain't bad.... mainly just new.
Communication issues for me was about the type of nose sizer. I was referring to a closed end..... the new one is gonna be an open end. Huge difference reaming a "blind hole"( closed end top punch) vs a through hole..... irrespective of whether the latter is tapered or not.
I've only made closed ends for the nose sections. And will continue,just taking a slightly different tack to hopefully,speeding up changes/adj.
I've only made closed ends for the nose sections. And will continue,just taking a slightly different tack to hopefully,speeding up changes/adj.
At this point,should probably move to the shooting/testing sub forum,oh well....
Here's the plan for the 309-150 Lee in the '06's.
H4198 is probably going to get a little spikey somewhere in the next few loads. Am going 30g today... Lyman 4th ed has the IMR version topping at 35.5. Don't see me getting there,eh... maybe but then what?
4895 would be next....
Then Varget...... which along with 4895 can work beautifully in the mid 2500's,at least in my experience.
Ideally,would like to be @2800 with IMR4350. Which is nicely up into JB load territory.
Here's the plan for the 309-150 Lee in the '06's.
H4198 is probably going to get a little spikey somewhere in the next few loads. Am going 30g today... Lyman 4th ed has the IMR version topping at 35.5. Don't see me getting there,eh... maybe but then what?
4895 would be next....
Then Varget...... which along with 4895 can work beautifully in the mid 2500's,at least in my experience.
Ideally,would like to be @2800 with IMR4350. Which is nicely up into JB load territory.
Yes Spin,water dropped and pretty durn fresh. Got a cpl hundred cast that are scaling DANG close on weight. My Lee 225-55 and this 309-150 are neck N neck about +/- weight closeness. Very impressive considering the $.
Water dropping for me is a balance between; lazy way of cradling the bullets so they aren't banging into each other when the casting pace ramps up...... NOT,that there aren't other ways of approaching this,just what I feel comfortable with. And the other aspect is stopping the heat action taking place during the cast.
Water dropping for me is a balance between; lazy way of cradling the bullets so they aren't banging into each other when the casting pace ramps up...... NOT,that there aren't other ways of approaching this,just what I feel comfortable with. And the other aspect is stopping the heat action taking place during the cast.
Wind today....
Made an adjustment on the Luepold VXII 3-9...warning, slight lane change in this discussion;
The cases used in this early mold workup are of unknown history. Don't need to explain the hurdles trying to circumvent this issue. Found 20 cases with 2 firings on them.... except, there was 2 left in this group still loaded up with 175's.
OK,scope needs an adjustment and Luepold ain't exactly known for accurate click values...
I made the adjustment to the scope and figured blast these last two of this matched set of 20 to "set" the scope before sending anymore test monkey 150's downrange. Which done,it allows me to anneal these 20.
So that's where we are.... watching cases dry and following the wind.
Made an adjustment on the Luepold VXII 3-9...warning, slight lane change in this discussion;
The cases used in this early mold workup are of unknown history. Don't need to explain the hurdles trying to circumvent this issue. Found 20 cases with 2 firings on them.... except, there was 2 left in this group still loaded up with 175's.
OK,scope needs an adjustment and Luepold ain't exactly known for accurate click values...
I made the adjustment to the scope and figured blast these last two of this matched set of 20 to "set" the scope before sending anymore test monkey 150's downrange. Which done,it allows me to anneal these 20.
So that's where we are.... watching cases dry and following the wind.
Got a line on a 6 1/2-20X44 Nikon Monarch on the cheap..... may snag it. Would love to have a Zeiss 3-10 on the CDL(avatar)....
Gonna send some 150's downrange today.
Need to start another thread cause, what happens to a 150g flatpoint .30 cal @2500+ when it hits a deer rib,center mass on lung/heart.
Gonna send some 150's downrange today.
Need to start another thread cause, what happens to a 150g flatpoint .30 cal @2500+ when it hits a deer rib,center mass on lung/heart.
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Well that didn't take long.... sent 3 150's downrange.
Thank goodness we blasted some last Saturday(range work with some buds with this rig). I'm 12:00 1" high @100. First two went into 1/2" 3rd was sorta called cause of it being rushed,opened it up to an inch or so.
Still on the H4198 "trail".... about 85% to where I'm predicting is all this powder/bullet/rig combination can go. Will blast another "quicky" 3 shot,hunting rig group later today.
Then go back to the loading room and add more powder. At LEAST the Luepold is finally in the ballpark. And feel confident with the zero to go,afield.
Thank goodness we blasted some last Saturday(range work with some buds with this rig). I'm 12:00 1" high @100. First two went into 1/2" 3rd was sorta called cause of it being rushed,opened it up to an inch or so.
Still on the H4198 "trail".... about 85% to where I'm predicting is all this powder/bullet/rig combination can go. Will blast another "quicky" 3 shot,hunting rig group later today.
Then go back to the loading room and add more powder. At LEAST the Luepold is finally in the ballpark. And feel confident with the zero to go,afield.