Range Report

[Ian]

I'd look at the 4064 really hard again next time, if that little vertical slice is any indicator.

I asssume your AR-30 has a totally different throat than the XCB, yet you're shooting the same bullet. That tells me your alloy is working really well and the bullet design turns out to be not too shabby either.

I'm gonna make a bunch of people mad if my M1A shoots like that with the harder bullets, many thanks for trying the 4064 in the XCB, now I have a better idea where to go in the .308. May also go back and run the 4320 again, it did pretty well with the 30 SIL and it was a LOT softer.

 

[Ian]

Oh, and yeah, love those "dry" lubes. Nothing like them for CORE at HV, and you need that tough, non-runny wax and "stuff" base to plug the leaks and work under boundary conditions in normal-twist barrels. You put that much stress on most lubes and you get results that conjure some weird ideas about the wrong things.

I have a new theory, actually revisiting an old theory that I had after Molly's "if you think so" thread came up, but after seeing this and Will's and Walter's work with your alloy vs. all the work I did with 50/50 and a couple other blends, and all the work with lubes and looking at mine and everyone's recovered bullets: I'm back to thinking it turns out that HV is all about land stress and losing metal on the leading side, which of course causes leaks on the back side, metal and lube washout, and everything goes to hell after that. I always had trouble if there was a "relax point" that dumped lube in the bore. Drying the lube up with soap fixed that, and I bet the 6/4 alloy will fix the rest, it sure has for you guys. That 50-50 in a ten twist is tough to nurse past 2400, probably in no small part due to drive side failure.

After 2400 the 12-twist is about all I could get to shoot really well, and only after getting completely out of the 25s, but the same 50-50 water dropped alloy would shoot in it to nearly 2700....Hmmmmmm.

 

[fiver]

I really like I-4064 as a powder, it has worked well in just about everything I have tried it in.
it turns in velocity's with cast quite a bit higher than the same load with jacketed does not just 50 fps higher it's like 250 fps higher.

I'm gonna work on the neck tension [I think .002 will help instead of the .001 and a hard jamb] and cull out a couple of cases then anneal a batch of about 20 decent cases and see what happens.
I also think shortening the oal to just kiss or be slightly off the lands will help.
it wouldn't hurt if the case thickness wasn't about .0015 different here and there too.

the AA-2700 is also gonna see a revisit I like it how it sits right now, but.. yeah neck tension once again.

 

[35 shooter]

Fiver,

Thanks for the info on the lube. I can't seem to get enough free time to do any shooting lately, so i'm enjoying all the reporting all you guys are doing now.

It's really good to see so many lately taking whatever they have....10, 12, whatever twist or cal. and just go shoot for vel. and accuracy and report what happens.
It all can't help but to help someone else down the line.

 

[RicinYakima]

"I really like I-4064 as a powder, it has worked well in just about everything I have tried it in.
it turns in velocity's with cast quite a bit higher than the same load with jacketed does not just 50 fps higher it's like 250 fps higher."

IMR has always been a sleeper, as far as I can tell. While speed falls between 4320 and 4350, its pressure rise is very gentle. Maybe it got pushed out after WWII because surplus 4895 was available for less than 1/4 the price of 4064. When I moved out West in 1974 the reloaders out here liked 4064 for the 6.5 Swede (very popular), 270 and 280 Remington, due to excellent accuracy and seemingly high velocity in those pre-chronograph days.

 

[freebullet]

pre-chronograph days.

No insult intended, but dang.

 

[RicinYakima]

Freebullet, no insult taken. Just glad to still be hanging out and shooting and learning new reloading techniques.

 

[fiver]

I don't think a lot of guy's remember it used to be normal to work a load in your rifle until the bolt almost didn't want to open and then you backed it off 1 or 1.5 grains and that was it.
when you got a new batch of powder you went through the same procedure and that was the new load.

 

[Rick]

I remember that but can't say I ever thought it a good practice or did it that way. It always just seemed more logical to me to start low and work up a half grain at a time while shooting groups. If the load was going to work as you approached optimal the groups shrink. In many cases another half grain and the grouping is worse. This is almost always well before the bolt or action gets tough to open. Pretty rare in my experience to find the hottest load the most accurate load.

 

[KHornet]

Fiver and Rick, I also remember those days. Seems a bit
scary now that I look back, and thinking about the very
flat primers at the time. Sometime back then, I went to
starting loads and worked up a half grain at a time. Times
change!

Paul

 

[fiver]

yep.
the ladder method looking for accuracy caught on pretty well and changed a lot of views.

I bet chronographs being available changed a lot of things.
[and settled some arguments about the 300 this or that being so hot compared to the 0-6]
but seeing that accuracy is right there at only 50 fps lower velocity and you got 5-6 more loads on the case changed the views a lot faster than a little more accuracy alone.

 

[Ian]

Ken Waters had a pretty good method worked out to figure out when you better stop adding powder to rifle cartridges.

 

[Rick]

Yes and he was good at it. Tricky to get right though measuring tenths of case head expansion and you better measure the same case each time because normal variation between brass can be more than what he measured.

 

[Ian]

He explained all that, and it isn't for those who don't want to take the time to understand all the implications and buy a few different boxes of factory cartridges to measure/shoot/measure for a control. It does, however, beat counting how many whacks it takes to open the bolt.

 

[VZerone]

I don't know which is more astounding......[/QUOTE

...and I was under the impression that fiver had kerosene lighting and had a convertor on his truck alternator to run his computer!!! ....alone post pictures1

 

[fiver]

I can guarantee it wouldn't be the first time this house was lit with a hurricane lamp.
I bet it didn't have electrical wiring, or gas heat until 1960.

 

[KHornet]

Bet it is nice and to your standards now Fiver! We
lived in a house like that when I was a little kid. We
had a wood burning kitchen stove with a boiler for
hot water. No heat upstairs.

Paul

 

[fiver]

I tore out the coal shoot door and the coal crib first thing when I bought the place.
our house used to sit down on the river, it was moved to it's present location in 1958 when they built the dam for the power company.
they cutout part of the north wall added a bathroom, an exterior door and built a garage around it.
a little later.
before that there was a door leading from the basement to the outside.
I stripped the door out and left the steps down there when I built a false outer wall for a storage room.
behind that wall all the heating ducts and water lines and plumbing access is all wide open for about 4 feet.
anyway the coal door is now a panel with a heating vent going to the garage which is built in as my casting and such shop.

 

[Tomme boy]

Ian. I seemed to get a little more speed on average with 4320 in 308win, 54R, 303Brit. But had problems finding a node. Then ran out of powder and then the shortage hit and never went back to it.

And it meters great! Unlike 4064. I still do not see it here anymore. We lost 3 shops due to the not being able to get stuff. Granted they were all about ready to close from being too old and it was their time anyways. But it sucks they are gone.

 

[Ian]

The "problem finding a node" problem is something I have heard elsewhere too, but I'll have to see for my self. I have about 15 lbs of the stuff in the steel gallon cans and haven't found anything better to do with it, so if I can work up a decent load with it for .308 it's a bonus. Plus, the burn curve is right to keep port pressure down at 11" of bullet travel to 11K psi, most other powders don't do that with cast bullets, even the 4895s. 2200 is no problem with a slow-for-M1A powder with cast, but when you get near the top the lack of engraving pressure makes very few powders suitable to use because they use up their energy too late.