Reloading book by Richard Lee?

[Bret4207]

Ackley was just some dude with some .473 to .450 tapered reamers with a 40° bevel that happened to match lengths to the shoulder neck jct of 06' and x57 cases .
Pope just did some rifling .
JMB was just a gun smith with a couple of ideas .
Elmer was a cowboy and big game guide that shot stuff with pistols .
Alven York and Audy Murphy captured some Germans during a war .
John Wayne was actor .
Jim Jones was a misunderstood preacher .
Jane Fonda made a little mistake .........
Seems like a lot of folks just don't have a lot of appreciation for the flavor and neuance of the writing and just want the facts . A,B,C etc is great but it's a lot more interesting when it's rearranged into "Quothe the raven , never more." . Sadly the just the facts crowd is fast outnumbering those that see the "humor" of not actually shooting cats but just taking an inch or 4 off their tails so they don't get caught under the porch rockers any more .

And you just hit a few of the big names. The sheer lack of appreciation and understanding of the history and influence of the guys that went before us is staggering. I wonder what that Amazon reviewer would say if he knew powders like Bullseye and Unique were invented and remain the same since 1890-1910? 4064, 3031, 4227 and 4198 all date from the late 30's. Nope, nothing more than 2 years old can possibly be of any value!

 

[Gary]

Bret; thanks for the ABE reminder, used to order from them years ago.

 

[RicinYakima]

"Old guys are always hard on younger people. 45 years ago my barracks chief was a retread from WW2. He thought everyone in the 70's Navy was stupid. It's just the way things go."
Yes Dannyd, that is the way it goes. People have experience for certain expectations, but younger people grew up and were exposed to different experiences. Doesn't make either generation right or wrong, just different.

 

[Glaciers]

At 46 years old I feel like I straddle the divide.
I would love a copy of Mr. Waters "Pet Loads" as a PDF on my phone.
Josh

Great phrase. I just turned 46 in August. We are kinda stuck in the middle. I know and understand just enough tech stuff to sometimes want the new version but most times just give me a book.

There is nothing like written data. Period. And I guess I'll take that attitude to my grave.

But, you guys a have a little more then a good 20 plus years of looking forward out the windshield then me, and tons of change has happened in that time. I do enjoy the on line wealth of information (when I can figure out how to excess what I need) that's available, but, I find as someone stated that the between the lines "stuff" does not translate as well or at all. Plus I don't need to plug in my books. And no cell or internet service in my shop 90 feet away.
What I have found, is a couple of Sites like this one where you have some knowledgeable folks, as (Elmer said "Hell I was there") to ask questions about stuff, and just "lurking" for years before I joined, for information.
Well I'll stop before I start talking about how crusty some of these guys are.

 

[HM8485]

I wanted to like this comment, but then I realized I believe Ric is talking about number-4 more so than number-3.
I skipped 4 for my own reasons [after some interaction with it's author] knowing full well it'd be full of linotype and 5744.

 

[dannyd]

"Old guys are always hard on younger people. 45 years ago my barracks chief was a retread from WW2. He thought everyone in the 70's Navy was stupid. It's just the way things go."
Yes Dannyd, that is the way it goes. People have experience for certain expectations, but younger people grew up and were exposed to different experiences. Doesn't make either generation right or wrong, just different.

True, I was raised by a poor guy from the great depression and WW2 the only thing we had in common was that we both lived on the planet earth. We weren't right or wrong just one guy from the 1930's and other 1970's no common ground. I'm over 60 and started on computer help desk in my 50's. I love to learn new things. Plus when my grandson talks about a video game I understand what he talking about.

 

[Rally]

I own lots of manuals and updated copies of many, but can’t say I was impressed either with the one Lee manual I have. Pretty generic cast data, as some a tad wild jacketed data. I tend to cross reference when I think I detect something on the wild side, from a single source. I’ve also noticed some manuals push powder/ bullets from particular manufactures to the detriment of others. I understand sponsorship, but the format shouldn’t change the next edition. I prefer some carryover of traditional data/ components to the next edition, not a push for the new kid on the block conversion.
I’m getting better with tech ( in the bush now waiting for it to stop raining to check traps) but find it easier to just turn back a page or two when comparing data for bullet weights/ powder charges. Absolutely love Google earth, but hate spell check! Lol

 

[Bruce Drake]

I've always appreciated the downloading formula that the Lee Modern Reloading 1st Ed. had in it. I hated their "improved version" in the 2nd Ed book. But by the time they published their 2nd edition, I had copies or nearly every major reloading manual and online sources had matured to the point I rarely crack the manual on a powder/bullet combination but go to the powder company website to pull data.

 

[RicinYakima]

It was a nice feature for the powder companies to provide data. But I stopped when Alliant stopped providing data for Bullseye, Unique and the standards and only listed their new powders. Luckily I saved the little flyers from the mid 1960's on, along with the DuPont flyers.

 

[Brad]

Even the Alliant website suffers from that issue.
I don’t want to load BE86 or Sport Pistol for 9mm but those are about all they list.
I really like the 80s era Lyman manuals. Lots of powder listed with cast. They also show lots of data in rifles with 2400, a powder I really like for that application.

 

[Mitty38]

In all fairness if Mr. Richard Lee hand not made that first whack a mole. I would not be here doing this today.
Lee put ,and his son still puts, reloading into the common mans and even the less fortunate persons grasp.
The 2nd edition was the first load book I owned . I have read a lot of his stuff. I believe yes his stuff was well edited you can tell he was not a particularly fluent person, better at doing then at telling how it is done.
He had his place in my education, but I grew past that and am now here. The book defiantly brakes things down for the novice.
However, I do not dispute, a lot of his theories, including those on pressure, were developed thru the mindset of one who found what worked well and safe for him. A kind of over justification for this "works good enough for me" and I m not going to change. This however does not mean there is nothing to take away from his ideas. He was a pioneer, and because of him I was able to get started in reloading, for less then a half weeks pay.
The Lee book gave me a lot of safe load data in one place. If you dig thru his publications you will find that he does give some credit to other testers, for some of the load data in his book. He was however there and communicating, sharing, and collecting data thru a lot of it. If not personally developing. What you may call plagiarism,I am sure he thought of as good record keeping, and Information sharing.
I have handed down my lee #2 book to another green horn, along with my notes in the back.Hope it helps him as much as it did me.

 

[RicinYakima]

Good for you Mitty38! Even guys with only an interest in black guns have to start somewhere.

 

[Bret4207]

I started with a Lee hand die and mallet too. But I was fortunate enough to have access to more than Lee's load card from the kit. I had years of Elmer, Skeeter, Dean Grenell, Rick Jamison, Bob Milek, Bob Hagel and a hundred other writers in piles of old magazines. I also had a Lyman book and later a Hornady book. Like I said, Lee was a great entrepreneur, but he was limited in other areas. I'm glad he made the stuff, but there are other, more complete options out there.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

Had mine for years cause I made it copying pages from Handloader and adding them to a three ring binder.
I did same with "featured" calibers in gun rags esp Shooting times.

Wasn't any such thing as the internet then.

Still have it and reference it. I will for ever. A very good older friend passed last year. I helped his widow sell off hunting and reloading things. She made a gift of all that wouldnt sell after about 6 mo. Going thru one of the last boxes she gave me was the red covered book one and two of KEN WATERS PET LOADS.

CW

 

[rodmkr]

I have the original Lee load manual. I think it is what got me started in reloading
with the whack a molie loaders.
Still have a Lee Loader for every caliber I load and take them out and play with them
often.
I have the manual no.2 but think Lee got lost in the publication of it.
The beginning has a lot of good info for someone starting out but lost it in the reloading data.
Why did the largest manufacturer of molds very little if no info on cast bullets in his book?
Somewhere down the line the people in charge lost it all.

rodmkr

 

[RBHarter]

About 1967ish Lee stopped all of the bullet data development as it just got either too liable or too diverse to continue . It is my understanding that Lyman did the same thing about the same time .
Disclaimer as www lore but RD was telling me about it during a visit 4-5 yr ago . I kind of felt like I could take his word for it .

 

[Bret4207]

Off track a little, but one of the best books I ever read in reloading related stuff was Bob Hagels "Game Loads and Practical Ballistics for the Hunter"...or something like that. It's out in the barn with all my other stuff I can't get to. Of course it's all geared to jacketed, but there was a lot of great stuff in it. As I understand it Bob was one of Elmers proteges and they had a falling out, a bad one, but he was a good writer and had a way of explaining things that clicked for me. Just in case someone runs across a copy.

 

[John]

I have four of Bob's books and see some strong opinions there along with great information. I met him once at the Hamilton, MT gun show when he was an older gent and far from friendly. It was his way or the highway and take your chances but he had a lot of knowledge from experience.

 

[John]

What turned me off of his books, was his disparagement of his competitors' products. It's good capitalistic practice to truthfully promote one's product, but lowering oneself by disparaging the competition is sheer pettiness. Reading between the lines, it's easy to see that his shots were aimed primarily at RCBS.

RCBS successfully sued Lee Enterprises for making their reloading products available with a choice of red or a dark green box. A jury agreed that it was patent infringement and Lee was restricted to a sole color red box for their items. It was a marketing ploy against "Big Green" that lost and Richard never forgot or forgave.

 

[RBHarter]

I got an RGB set maybe 3-4 yr ago in green .