so waht ya doin today?
- Thread starter fiver
- Start date
fiver
Well-Known Member
they are pretty hit and miss around here too.
I think I have maybe 2 bricks of each, one brick of the M's is designated to the 7x57 Ackley rifle.
Mag-tech also makes a 9-1/2 primer I don't think it's quite as hot as the Remington but it does compare favorably with the Federal brand.
I think I have maybe 2 bricks of each, one brick of the M's is designated to the 7x57 Ackley rifle.
Mag-tech also makes a 9-1/2 primer I don't think it's quite as hot as the Remington but it does compare favorably with the Federal brand.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
Once you leave the L.A. Basin, Rick--the reloading components selections thin out markedly. All of my Rem primers--what few that I have--were sourced from Miwall at the Big Reno Guns Shows I have attended. Phillips Wholesale in Covina has them occasionally, and Halbrook's in Fontana infrequently stocks them. CCI and W-W are overwhelmingly the leaders locally......Rem and Federal are few and far between. Kind of a chicken-or-egg question--which came first, scarcity or absence of demand?
I have learned to live without Rem and Fed caps--with 2 exceptions--Federal 215s for the 45/70 milsurp powder duplex loads, and Rem 6-1/2s for the small-capacity rifle rounds like 22 Hornet and 25/20 WCF. These two calibers' group sizes were INSTANTLY cut almost in half via use of the Rem 6-1/2 primers. And groups sizes with my 45/70 cast loads using duplexed WC-860 REALLY contracted when I swapped out the CCI 200s and 250s for the Fed 215s.
WC-860 is hard to ignite, even with an IMR-4198 kicker. Like an old 2-stroke engine with pre-mixed oil in the fuel, spark plug heat range makes all the difference on earth between reliable operation and fouled-out ignition.
The opposite problem exists with the small rifle rounds--in those, the CCI 400 is too much of a good thing, while the 500 is not quite enough. The Rem 6-1/2 combines the harder cup metal with a more gentle ignition spark that caters to the small spaces found in the Hornet, 25/20, 30 Carbine, and 32/20. As far as the 32/20 revolver is concerned, I think the late Ken Waters only half-resolved the issues of load weirdness (sporadic poor ignition and attendant inaccuracy or bullets stuck in bores) with powder selection/load density. The other half-answer is PRIMER SELECTION--and Rem #6-1/2s give better and more consistent performance than the small pistol (WSP and CCI 500) or small rifle (WSR and CCI 400) with both SR-4756 and Herco (my likely replacement for SR-4756). 137 years after its birthing, I think we have finally figured out how to make the 32/20 WCF behave itself in a wheelgun. It has been a long, arduous slog though.
I have learned to live without Rem and Fed caps--with 2 exceptions--Federal 215s for the 45/70 milsurp powder duplex loads, and Rem 6-1/2s for the small-capacity rifle rounds like 22 Hornet and 25/20 WCF. These two calibers' group sizes were INSTANTLY cut almost in half via use of the Rem 6-1/2 primers. And groups sizes with my 45/70 cast loads using duplexed WC-860 REALLY contracted when I swapped out the CCI 200s and 250s for the Fed 215s.
WC-860 is hard to ignite, even with an IMR-4198 kicker. Like an old 2-stroke engine with pre-mixed oil in the fuel, spark plug heat range makes all the difference on earth between reliable operation and fouled-out ignition.
The opposite problem exists with the small rifle rounds--in those, the CCI 400 is too much of a good thing, while the 500 is not quite enough. The Rem 6-1/2 combines the harder cup metal with a more gentle ignition spark that caters to the small spaces found in the Hornet, 25/20, 30 Carbine, and 32/20. As far as the 32/20 revolver is concerned, I think the late Ken Waters only half-resolved the issues of load weirdness (sporadic poor ignition and attendant inaccuracy or bullets stuck in bores) with powder selection/load density. The other half-answer is PRIMER SELECTION--and Rem #6-1/2s give better and more consistent performance than the small pistol (WSP and CCI 500) or small rifle (WSR and CCI 400) with both SR-4756 and Herco (my likely replacement for SR-4756). 137 years after its birthing, I think we have finally figured out how to make the 32/20 WCF behave itself in a wheelgun. It has been a long, arduous slog though.
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Pistolero
Well-Known Member
Bret do you know about stellite? We used to slather on stellite for the leading edges of our mower blades in
Fla which ran into sand a lot and just would wipe out a steel blade. Stellite is harder than the hinges of hell,
but slathers onto steel real nicely. Now the ONLY way you can shape it after slathering it on is grinding, so
that might be a limiting factor. But your Amish guy may be able to do some grinding to shape or dimension
if you have critical parts of that baler that are wearing too rapidly, especially if it is abrasive stuff coming in
with the hay like dirt and sand. I'm not sure if you can still just buy stellite rod, but we bought it from the
welding supply house back in the 60s and I learned to apply it as a hard coating. It is great as a super hard
(and high temp resistant, if needed) surface coating on steel, but again - has to be ground to final shape, AFAIK,
too hard to machine...but may be modern magical cutting inserts will cut it. Keith would know about that.
OH, when I say "slather on", I mean like brazing with a oxy-actylene torch. It lays on just nicely. You can build
up worn areas, and then reshape with careful grinding and they will stay that shape and size for a long time,
far longer than steel, and or course bronze brazing.
Fla which ran into sand a lot and just would wipe out a steel blade. Stellite is harder than the hinges of hell,
but slathers onto steel real nicely. Now the ONLY way you can shape it after slathering it on is grinding, so
that might be a limiting factor. But your Amish guy may be able to do some grinding to shape or dimension
if you have critical parts of that baler that are wearing too rapidly, especially if it is abrasive stuff coming in
with the hay like dirt and sand. I'm not sure if you can still just buy stellite rod, but we bought it from the
welding supply house back in the 60s and I learned to apply it as a hard coating. It is great as a super hard
(and high temp resistant, if needed) surface coating on steel, but again - has to be ground to final shape, AFAIK,
too hard to machine...but may be modern magical cutting inserts will cut it. Keith would know about that.
OH, when I say "slather on", I mean like brazing with a oxy-actylene torch. It lays on just nicely. You can build
up worn areas, and then reshape with careful grinding and they will stay that shape and size for a long time,
far longer than steel, and or course bronze brazing.
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Pistolero
Well-Known Member
OK, I thought you would know, Keith. I wondered if any of the new miracle coatings on carbide were
hard enough. But it is a really serious wear protection coating which can be added over ordinary steel
by pretty unsophisticated 'garage tech' level of processes, IF you can then reshape it to what you need.
So if there are critical fits needed in those baler needles that hand grinding won't do, maybe a tool post
grinder could do it in a lathe.
Since I have absolutely zero clue how a baler knotting system works or what the pieces even look like
other than Bret's description of "needles", I have no idea if this is a feasible repair. But it is easy to apply
and harder than the hinges of hell.
hard enough. But it is a really serious wear protection coating which can be added over ordinary steel
by pretty unsophisticated 'garage tech' level of processes, IF you can then reshape it to what you need.
So if there are critical fits needed in those baler needles that hand grinding won't do, maybe a tool post
grinder could do it in a lathe.
Since I have absolutely zero clue how a baler knotting system works or what the pieces even look like
other than Bret's description of "needles", I have no idea if this is a feasible repair. But it is easy to apply
and harder than the hinges of hell.
smokeywolf
Well-Known Member
Stellite is good stuff. Have some laying around the shop. It's in the form of blade inserts for hand expansion reamers. Also used in Watts Bros. square hole drills.
Very hard stuff, but doesn't chip easily.
Very hard stuff, but doesn't chip easily.
KeithB
Resident Half Fast Machinist
A good weld supply shop should have several types of hardfacing materials available beside stellite, some may be machinable but I don't mess much with that stuff so I don't know for sure. I used to know a guy that re-weld the teeth on digger buckets from draglines, back hoes, etc. It was all stick welding/grind as necessary manual labor but he lived in a nice house thanks to his skilled labor. Died many ears ago so no help there. Probably stuff out there that could be gas welded..
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
This was done just like brazing, but without flux. Heat up the steel to red, slobber on the stellite rod like
adding brazing rod. It would build really nicely, again, very much like brazing with a oxy-acetylene torch.
I learned to do it in about 5 minutes when I was 16, how hard can it be? It was darker, greyer color than
carbon steel. Layer over the cutting edge of a bush hog blade a good 1/8" thick or more, then sharpen on
a grinder. It would last for 10-15 hours when we ran bush hog in Fla sand, with various animal mounds that we mowed
through. A regular steel blade was dull in an hour.
It says "can be turned with carbide tooling".....
This one can only be ground.
adding brazing rod. It would build really nicely, again, very much like brazing with a oxy-acetylene torch.
I learned to do it in about 5 minutes when I was 16, how hard can it be? It was darker, greyer color than
carbon steel. Layer over the cutting edge of a bush hog blade a good 1/8" thick or more, then sharpen on
a grinder. It would last for 10-15 hours when we ran bush hog in Fla sand, with various animal mounds that we mowed
through. A regular steel blade was dull in an hour.
It says "can be turned with carbide tooling".....
This one can only be ground.
Hardfacing oxy/acetylene
Does anyone have experience with Co1 or Co6 hardfacing? When torch brazing these alloys, does one use some sort of flux (like with general brazing). Borax perhaps? Very difficult to find people with experience at the local welding shops.
weldingweb.com
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Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Thanks for the Stellite suggestion, but the wear I was talking about is the knotter assy, specifically the bores of the shafts the components turn in. What I need is a newer complete knotter assy, 2 of them actually. BUT! As it happens I spent several hours in the hot sun yesterday morning and afternoon working on the baler. I got the needles about where I thought they should be and then, since there was still hay in the bale chamber, I ran the knotters through a fraction of an inch at a time, turning the flywheel by hand. What I found was several things the guy wrote about in the online essay, essays actually, I mentioned. I made several adjustments per his recommendation and found I still had a problem or 2. So I ran the knotters through again and compared parts positions between the good, reliable side and the problem side. I found that my bill hook issue appeared to be on the opposite side of the bill hook "catch" channel as I'd thought and I found the "tail" or sweep on the rear of the knife arm on the problem side was at a different angle than the "good" side. I worked over those 2 areas with a Dremel grinder and a crescent wrench and gave her a try in the field. Made one more adjustment in the field to raise a knotter tip slightly and it SEEMS to be trying right! I will still be fine tuning, but it ties better now without the benefit of additional hay in the basket chute than it ever has in the 20 some years I've owned it. I think that "tail" on the knife arm was a critical issue, but I've never seen it mentioned anywhere in all the material I've read on knotters over the years. It guides the twine somewhat and helps position things. The twine position on the good side was almost 2" closer to the knotter than on the bad side. I won't say I understand why a 1/4" bend up and at a different angle would help, but it seems to have done so. I realize all this is mumbo-jumbo to many of you, so I'll provide this link to show just what I've been playing with-
After getting the knotter more or less fixed, I made the mistake of mumbling out loud, "By golly, NOW I can start knocking down some hay!!!!" Unhitched the baler and hitched up the haybine (hay mower) and headed for the field. Remember that hot sun I mentioned at the start of this post? Honest injun guys, 20 minutes after I got the baler unhitched and made my fatal announcement to the fates, the skies darkened, the temp dropped 10 degrees and the rain began! It hasn't so much as sprinkled in the better part of 2 weeks! I swear, I should hire myself out, go to these nations plagued by drought, walk out into the middle of a desert and loudly announce, "Well boys, think I'll start mowing hay." Within 30 minutes the skies will have opened up into a steady, soaking rain! I only seem to have 2 talents, sticking my foot in my mouth up to my hip around people I had no intention of offending and causing rain to appear out of a clear blue sky!
Got a load os stuff to do today, in the rain it looks like. Back to work I guess!
After getting the knotter more or less fixed, I made the mistake of mumbling out loud, "By golly, NOW I can start knocking down some hay!!!!" Unhitched the baler and hitched up the haybine (hay mower) and headed for the field. Remember that hot sun I mentioned at the start of this post? Honest injun guys, 20 minutes after I got the baler unhitched and made my fatal announcement to the fates, the skies darkened, the temp dropped 10 degrees and the rain began! It hasn't so much as sprinkled in the better part of 2 weeks! I swear, I should hire myself out, go to these nations plagued by drought, walk out into the middle of a desert and loudly announce, "Well boys, think I'll start mowing hay." Within 30 minutes the skies will have opened up into a steady, soaking rain! I only seem to have 2 talents, sticking my foot in my mouth up to my hip around people I had no intention of offending and causing rain to appear out of a clear blue sky!
Got a load os stuff to do today, in the rain it looks like. Back to work I guess!
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
Bret, that is one complicated piece of machinery! If the wear is in the bores of the shafts....can't bushings be
pressed in to resize the bores and get the fit back? Or is the shaft itself worn? Can the shaft be resurfaced
in some way, there are various sleeving, metal spraying and such operations that might help. If the shaft is
just a shaft, can a new one be made reasonably from round stock?
Seems like your Amish machinist might be able to do some rebuilding/rebushing of some of these critical
parts to get the slop out and get it back working better.
But, I am impressed that the inventers of these machines were some amazing guys. We had a New Holland
baler like that back the early 70s when I was working hay, and I remember the complex thrashing and banging
operation that went on and then -bingo- a new bale was pushed out onto the trough and we had to grab it
(we were in a trailer hitched behind the baler) and carry it back and stack it in the trailer, until the trailer was full.
I never had any occasion to even examine the baler, other than to make a mental note to keep the hell clear of
what looked like a real opportunity to lose body parts if you got too near while it was thrashing and banging.
That you are keeping this old iron working is a tribute to your tenacity in repairing complicated old machinery, for
sure.
While I didn't entirely follow the video, I have a lot better idea what you are talking about now. Seems somewhat
akin to a sewing machine, at least in broad concept, a needle delivering the thread thru a space, and to a mechanism
which turns it into a stitch or a knot, depending on which we are talking about. I can see how the flakes develop, too,
with the feeder pumping in a slug of hay from the side and then the system compressing it into the bale as it is formed.
Bill
pressed in to resize the bores and get the fit back? Or is the shaft itself worn? Can the shaft be resurfaced
in some way, there are various sleeving, metal spraying and such operations that might help. If the shaft is
just a shaft, can a new one be made reasonably from round stock?
Seems like your Amish machinist might be able to do some rebuilding/rebushing of some of these critical
parts to get the slop out and get it back working better.
But, I am impressed that the inventers of these machines were some amazing guys. We had a New Holland
baler like that back the early 70s when I was working hay, and I remember the complex thrashing and banging
operation that went on and then -bingo- a new bale was pushed out onto the trough and we had to grab it
(we were in a trailer hitched behind the baler) and carry it back and stack it in the trailer, until the trailer was full.
I never had any occasion to even examine the baler, other than to make a mental note to keep the hell clear of
what looked like a real opportunity to lose body parts if you got too near while it was thrashing and banging.
That you are keeping this old iron working is a tribute to your tenacity in repairing complicated old machinery, for
sure.
While I didn't entirely follow the video, I have a lot better idea what you are talking about now. Seems somewhat
akin to a sewing machine, at least in broad concept, a needle delivering the thread thru a space, and to a mechanism
which turns it into a stitch or a knot, depending on which we are talking about. I can see how the flakes develop, too,
with the feeder pumping in a slug of hay from the side and then the system compressing it into the bale as it is formed.
Bill
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Bill, if I could locate something like a Speedi-sleeve with a shoulder that I could go both below and above the grease fittings with, then maybe I could repair it. But the general method of repairing 60 year old knotters is to either get newer, used parts (often a complete knotter stack) or to just go buy a newer baler. I've thought about rebuilding the assys I have, but it would kind of be like refreshing a shot out barrel by deepening the grooves and then getting a custom mould- a lot of effort and (these days) probably a couple grand when a few hundred would get you a new barrel/knotter.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Well, the issue is figuring out exactly where the wear is and what sizes things were supposed to be when they started out. The pieces I'm looking at don't look all that worn, but they have enough play that it could be measured in fractions of an inch, and I don't mean 16ths or 32nds! I suppose part of the problem is that I've never actually seen any knotters newer than maybe 35 years old with many10's of thousands of bales through them. Maybe they are supposed to have more play than I think since some of the parts are just cotter keyed in place and the key is the sole means of determining end shake. IOW, I'm not sure just how much precision is engineered into these things. After all, all they do is spin and make a knot and cut the twine.
As far as the bushing idea, yeah, but that means boring out the casting for the bushing and that means taking the knotter stack apart. The manual has a 4 or 5 page section on how to put the knotter stack together and how many virgins need to be sacrificed to get the thing to work. That's part of why I'm hesitant to start throwing hundreds of dollars at this thing when a grand or a bit more would get me something half as old or less that has maybe spent a far greater amount of time under cover than mine has.
Well, I appreciate the thoughts guys. It's a heck of a lot of work just to make cubes of hay to feed to unappreciative livestock!
As far as the bushing idea, yeah, but that means boring out the casting for the bushing and that means taking the knotter stack apart. The manual has a 4 or 5 page section on how to put the knotter stack together and how many virgins need to be sacrificed to get the thing to work. That's part of why I'm hesitant to start throwing hundreds of dollars at this thing when a grand or a bit more would get me something half as old or less that has maybe spent a far greater amount of time under cover than mine has.
Well, I appreciate the thoughts guys. It's a heck of a lot of work just to make cubes of hay to feed to unappreciative livestock!
fiver
Well-Known Member
I don't gotta say it cause you got this figured out already.
but you ain't in the livestock business your in the grass business [anyone with more than 2 cows and a goat is, whether they know it or not]
a little investment might save a lot of time and aggravation better placed on something else.
but you ain't in the livestock business your in the grass business [anyone with more than 2 cows and a goat is, whether they know it or not]
a little investment might save a lot of time and aggravation better placed on something else.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I gotcha Fiver. It's the investment part that's the problem. My health (arthritis) is making it look like I'm going to have to give up a good part of my farming. Makes me gun shy to "invest" in something I'm likely to get out of. And that's killing me BTW. THis isn't working out like I planned at all.
fiver
Well-Known Member
yeah.. a swath of land you can't just run over with some equipment 1-2 times a year is more time consuming than it's worth unless it's a cash crop.
I can tell the place is burning you up and your not really able to enjoy what you wanted to go do.
might be easier to pasturize the field, or cut a deal with a neighbor.
it was worth the hundred bucks I paid the neighbor to come cut and bale our place.
I got like 100 bales of field grass he just drove over for an hour when he done his second cut of alp alpha.
no wear and tear on the old tractor and I didn't even have to be there when it got done.
I can tell the place is burning you up and your not really able to enjoy what you wanted to go do.
might be easier to pasturize the field, or cut a deal with a neighbor.
it was worth the hundred bucks I paid the neighbor to come cut and bale our place.
I got like 100 bales of field grass he just drove over for an hour when he done his second cut of alp alpha.
no wear and tear on the old tractor and I didn't even have to be there when it got done.