The quirks of handgun history

[Petrol & Powder]

After discussing snubnosed DA revolvers and the 3" class of revolvers (good discussions by the way, thanks) I thought about those handguns that history left behind.
These are the unique guns that appeared and had a following but were just outside the norm enough that they remained outside the mainstream market.
These are guns such as the John Jovino Effector, The S&W ASP, the original Detonics Combat Master and others that appeared but never really made it into the mainstream.
Good ideas that were overcome by events or good ideas that remained just outside the mainstream.

One of my favorites is a gun that was mainstream and mass produced but appeared at the wrong time in history and was overcome by events: The short barreled L-frame S&W.
For decades the DA revolver was the sidearm of choice for American law enforcement. In the twilight of the reign of the DA revolver, the excellent S&W L-frames and Ruger GP-100's appeared. (1981 & 1985 respectively). When equipped with a 4" barrel, these were the pinnacle of the American Law Enforcement duty revolvers. By the mid 1980's the writing was on the wall and the semi-auto pistol would displace the DA revolver in the holsters of American LE officers.
Right before the sun went down on the police DA revolver, the 2 1/2" barreled S&W L-frame 686 appeared.
This gun looked a little like a snubnose due to the 2.5" barrel but this L-frame was never really a backup gun. It was generally a primary weapon for plainclothes use.
In the late 1980's there were still a lot of experienced revolver shooters out there that either didn't want a semi-auto or didn't have the option of carrying a semi-auto. But they needed, or wanted, something shorter than the 4" L-frame duty gun. The 2.5" L-frame was the answer.

Now, before everyone gets upset, YES - the 2.5" L-frames are still with us but they are no longer the choice of: Air Marshalls, Executive protection guards, Armed couriers, Detectives and other armed plainclothes professionals. The compact semi-auto has replaced the short barreled L-frame for that concealed carry role.

Right at the very bitter end of the DA revolver's reign in American LE history - the short barreled L-frame tried to hold onto that niche. It was replaced by the pistol but it was a cool concept in the twilight of the revolver.

 

[RBHarter]

There is/was a 9/38/357 . I don't remember the name or maker as it was short lived production . It had a special extractor for rimmed and rimless cases .
Of course something like this really draws me for utility of cartridges .
By the time I had enough put away for one , they were out of production and had become rare collectable and doubled plus over MSRP .

 

[358156 hp]

Medusa M47.

 

[RBHarter]

That's the one . Not really some grand innovation , but a unique feature . Sort of like the 1875 Remington after the 73' Colts after the 1858 Remington . It was just a top strap on the frame and S&W did it way before that for a 22 short . The open top Colts 1849-1860 were plenty strong enough , 50 gr of FFFg under a 250 gr conical isn't any sissy load in the Walker . 40 in a Dragoon (have a copy) is pretty impressive . I prefer the 58' but it's still fun . I have a modified 429421 that drops .448 just right for a tight slip fit in the Dragoon . 40 gr there would take it from the compressed balloon head 45 Colts to the bottom of Ruger loads . My barrels are .426×.440 . The 58 on 30 gr of T7 gives a 141gr 980 fps , 940 on 30 gr of Pyro P and FFFg Goex , 890 on my sweet gum based screen powder mouth flush and compressed . I can get it up to 920 fps if I precompress the compressed load and refill the chamber again .
And I've wondered out in the weeds .......

 

[StrawHat]

The “War on Drugs” helped spell the end of the revolver in LE circles. Departments were accepting government money and had to spend it so a quick way to spend a lot of money is to buy new sidearms, ammunition, leather, etc. LE did not want to seem “old fashioned” so they rapidly adopted what the brass perceived as the “next best thing”. In my opinion, a step backwards as money was not allocated to proper training. Shots per incidence increased, in some departments dramatically. ADs increased.

The L frame was it loved by the street cop. We had enough crap on our duty belts that extra weight was a big deal. I competed with L frames, both 4” and 6”, and opted to carry a 4” on duty. That lasted about two weeks. Back to the K frame.

There is such a thing as too short of a barrel and the 2 1/2” L frame qualifies.

BTW, the ASP and the Devel 9mm were both great ideas. Same with the 3”(?), 1911s. Why did they not continue? Because S&W introduced the 3913 and Colt the Officers Model. Shooters are notoriously cheap. We want the best custom made stuff until it comes time to pay for it! Then, factory is great!

Kevin

 

[Rally]

Remember the Iver Johnson TP 22? Made a nice pocket gun and was cheap. Still have one.

 

[CZ93X62]

I had a Walther TPH 22 LR in stainless steel for a couple years. If the I/J TP-22 wasn't its clone, it was sure as heck its first cousin. That TPH was a reliable, fairly accurate little banger for what it was. Like all 22 LRs, it had its preferences on ammo--and it fed CCI 36 grain HPs like water down a drainpipe. It was difficult to manipulate in my big paws, and could hammer-bite if I didn't mind the store properly......but it was a good little pistol. At the time I sold it, I couldn't use it for carry purposes--now I can via retirement and policy change, and I likely would not have sent it down the road.

 

[RicinYakima]

I had a couple of Detonics Combat Masters and a friend who was a Detonics collector. I don't know that he ever shot his very much, but had two sent back for feeding problems. I sent both of mine back multiple times (they were only 125 miles away) and they never would feed ball or jacketed hollow points. Colt finally figured the geometry out.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

The "War on Drugs" worked both ways and it wasn't entirely political. Drug dealers had enormous amounts of cash and could buy whatever weapons they wanted. It wasn't just cops buying pistols. Drug dealers wanted pistols, law abiding citizens wanted pistols and cops wanted pistols.
And, the shift to semi-autos wasn't isolated to the 1980's. The Illinois state police were carrying S&W 9mm pistols long before other agencies. There were a lot of 1911 pistols carried by Texas lawmen and there were mid-sized agencies switching to pistols even in the early 80's. I think the huge increase in violence that was associated with the advent of crack cocaine in the mid to late 1980's played a role even if drug enforcement is removed from the picture. Society in general became more violent.
Large departments were slower to shift because they were cumbersome bureaucracies and slow to do anything new. Small departments lacked the funding to transition. However, that shift from revolvers to pistols was inevitable.

A 2.5" L-frame is too short for a duty gun but it did have its place in plain clothes work. It had the same full sized grip as a L or K frame, you could fire as many magnum loads through it as you could stand and it was a solid platform that well seasoned guys could rely on under stress. Savvy street cops saw the value of those short L-frames in the days where not every mid-size semi-auto pistol was reliable. Eventually compact, higher capacity pistols became available and more important - reliable. When reliable compact pistols became accepted, the fate of the short L-frame was sealed. But for just a few years at the end of the revolver days, ........the 2 1/2" L-frame had a place. It was sort of like the Pony Express being replaced by the telegraph. Something special and unique but eclipsed almost immediately.


And production guns like the compact S&W 9mm pistols and Colt Officer's model did kill off the ultra-expensive custom options like the ASP and Detonics; but hey - that's still part of history. The interstate highway system killed off the American passenger train and the jet airliners killed off trans-Atlantic ocean liners. Things change.

 

[Ian]

M1895 Nagant revolver.

 

[RicinYakima]

M1895 Nagant revolver.

Reality (empirical data) overrules theory (should work).

 

[Petrol & Powder]

CZ93X62 - I remember when the Walther TPH was sort of affordable but even then I couldn't find one that I could afford.
They are cool little pistols. There weren't many DA pocket pistols in those days. Beretta made the Bobcat in 22LR but that came out much later.

 

[Outpost75]

I always wanted a Webley-Fosberry. Did get a chance to shoot Bill Ruger's once, equipped with shoulder stock and bayonet.
I killed five out of six watermelons and then charged and stabbed the last one for a clean sweep!

 

[david s]

Saw one of the Webley-Fosberry automatic revolvers once but didn't shoot it. An interesting offbeat design. I remembered that the Brits didn't like the S&W Triple Locks with the ejector rod housing because they worried about fouling and then while looking at the auto revolver thinking "Really".

 

[CZ93X62]

I can only imagine how gravely disappointed that Imperial Russian troops must have been to see their excellent S&W #3 revolvers getting replaced with the Model 1895 Nagant mini-contraptions.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

I always wanted a Webley-Fosberry. Did get a chance to shoot Bill Ruger's once, equipped with shoulder stock and bayonet.
I killed five out of six watermelons and then charged and stabbed the last one for a clean sweep!

THAT is EXACTLY the kind of gun I'm talking about.
Something that was a little outside of mainstream or overcome by events. The Webley-Fosberry fit both of those criteria.
(and I'm a bit jealous that you got to meet Bill Ruger and shoot that particular gun)

 

[Mitty38]

I saw one in a private museum in Dayton, Ohio, about 30 years ago, if you are talking about the semi auto, gas actuated revolver model.
He also had a Union automatic. Which seamed to be a bit less complicated, but a lot whimper. As I have an affinity for weird stuff.
Not fortunate enough to touch them, let alone shoot either one. But they still made a lasting impression on me.
If I remember right there was a lot of moving parts. No wonder slide actuated designs won out.
Bet it was mostly a choice of cost of manufacture, that killed it.

 

[david s]

I wasn't even aware there is a gas actuated revolver. I've heard of Colt single actions with missing firing pin bushings becoming self cockers but not by design. The one I saw has a zig zag cylinder that works on a stud in the bottom of the frame. The cylinder has a "Z" pattern to it. When the gun recoils the top half of the revolver moves back wards and the stud forces the cylinder to rotate in the "Z" shaped groove automatically advancing the cylinder and cocking the hammer.

 

[Mitty38]

I wasn't even aware there is a gas actuated revolver. I've heard of Colt single actions with missing firing pin bushings becoming self cockers but not by design. The one I saw has a zig zag cylinder that works on a stud in the bottom of the frame. The cylinder has a "Z" pattern to it. When the gun recoils the top half of the revolver moves back wards and the stud forces the cylinder to rotate in the "Z" shaped groove automatically advancing the cylinder and cocking the hammer.

I was going by memory, I should have fact checked. The two guns I mentioned were recoil operated.
Not sure if there is I may have been thinking of the gas operated pistol. The Wildey 45 Win Mag, which is a much newer and different gun.
The memory kinda mixes things up a little after 30 years or so.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

I wouldn't classify either as "gas operated".
The Webley-fosberry is a recoil operated revolver.. Kind of Steam - Punk revolver / pistol stuff.