44 mag SRH

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I shot my group with brass shot who knows how many times, probably different for some cases. Cases have never been trimmed. Bullets were hardly perfect. I used a mag primer when a standard primer would probably give better uniformity.

Just shows that good bullet fit can make up for many load sins. What I doubt is that any of this can make up for poor bullet fit.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Much to take in for such a seemingly small test. Crimp, at least with this combination appears to only serve to keep the bullets from pulling out under inertia in the unfired chambers.

I think you've got it.

Case neck tension appears to remain consistent regardless of case sizing.

That's it right there. For a consistent burn there must be sufficient and consistent neck tension. Not crimp. You would never believe how many experienced handloaders that have looked at the results of that test and couldn't see what was staring right at them. That's not the only such test, I've done several similar tests and results are similar.

I'll add that this would be dependent on the uniformity of case hardness due to potential work hardening. This would mesh neatly with your earlier post regarding prepping new matching cases, and using them in rotation so as to work all cases equally and evenly. I got wrapped up in number crunching earlier, failing to acknowledge that 18 FPS difference in average velocity is insignificant. I honestly chased that 18 FPS both times I've seen this material.

This particular test was part of my match load testing. Notice that only virgin and second firing brass was included, I didn't use brass that had been through the wars for competition. Older brass was for practice days and load work.

And yes, the few fps difference between the five tests is insignificant. There is much info in a chrono test beyond how fast is it going.
 
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Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
How often do you trim cases? I assume you trim news brass but for practice ammo is it every 5 loads? Never?
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Yes Brad, fit is king. Proper sized and consistent throats matched to a proper groove diameter is also important. How many times on the CB forum have you seen me post "size to a mild snug fit in the throats". "The only reason to slug a revolver bore is to know that it is at or a tick smaller than the throats".
 
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Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
How important is it to have part of the full diameter portion of the bullet in the cylinder throat with a loaded round? I would think that this is like a rifle cartridge being snug on the lands, it helps keep things centered. Failing this sort of fit the bullet lies on the bottom of the chamber, to an extent, and may not enter the cylinder throat straight or on center.
 

Lee S. Forsberg

New Member
I am using a 2x Leupould. The bullet is an MP 44/444 305 HP. http://www.mp-molds.com
Last I knew he had some left.
Being able to seat the bullet long enough to have it supported by the cylinder throats makes a world of difference.
The bullets were cast from range scrap I collects and water dropped. I cast these at 740 degrees. I plan to slightly alter that alloy in the future and change my heat treat process a bit.

Good scope isn't it. I liked the 2x so much I put a 4x Leupold on my T/C. You get good fill-out at 740 degrees? Do you add Arsenic to your alloy or just go with what is in the range lead?
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Good scope isn't it. I liked the 2x so much I put a 4x Leupold on my T/C. You get good fill-out at 740 degrees? Do you add Arsenic to your alloy or just go with what is in the range lead?
I got good fill out with little trouble. I didn't add any arsenic, don't see a real need. It would potentially speed the hardening process but I don't think it would do much more than that. I guess you could say I decided to not fix what isn't broken?

Rick talked me into putting a higher magnification scope on the revolver, will go with one of my Weaver 2.5-8x pistol scopes. The 2X Leupould is a nice scope but it doesn't have much magnification and being able to hold better sure won't hurt groups.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Trim new of course. Keep an eye on them, they don't grow all that much & when I was competing I didn't keep them all that long anyway.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
As long as there is arsenic in the alloy adding more won't accomplish anything. 1/4 of 1 percent is all the arsenic that's needed for a grain refiner.
 
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Ian

Notorious member
How important is it to have part of the full diameter portion of the bullet in the cylinder throat with a loaded round? I would think that this is like a rifle cartridge being snug on the lands, it helps keep things centered. Failing this sort of fit the bullet lies on the bottom of the chamber, to an extent, and may not enter the cylinder throat straight or on center.

Neither rifle nor revolver bullet noses should be relied upon to center the bullet during static fit any more than you would trust Stevie Wonder to safely pilot the next plane you take. If the case lies in the bottom of the chamber, or if the bullet nose cannot free-float dead center to begin with you have already made a mistake. Try focusing on the parts of static fit that absolutely cannot go to hell when the primer goes off, the things you CAN count on.

WHAT? Ok, think about this. In the first ten thousandths of an inch of bullet travel, the bullet can already be going 20 to 40 fps at that instant! Now, you tell me, if you take one of your bullets and throw it as hard as you can, about the same speed as that bullet is moving in ten thousandths, at an oblique angle against hardened steel, is it not going to get dinged pretty badly? If you allow the brass to point the bullet off-center or crooked at the start, is there any hope that the bullet alignment can be corrected by the throat without damaging the bullet on the side that contacts first? The answer is yes and no, or really, "it depends". Whether the nose pre-pilots on center or not is also fairly irrelevant, any piloting on the lands in a rifle is weak support at best, sort of a "feel good" thing people do because it helps band-aid other things at low velocity. In a revolver, the bullet is moving even faster when it hits the taper, and has less nose to align much less anything to really "pre pilot" against other than the cylinder throat. What you need to do is simple, just POINT the bullet in the right direction and make sure that the part of the brass holding the bullet releases evenly all the way around and the same way every time.

But wait, there's more. The Noble gas laws tell us that pressure within the system will find equilibrium. There are wave fronts within the case where pressures are initially fluctuating, but the origin and case shape direct them evenly upon the bullet base....usually. The pressure NEEDS to be uniform on the base, anyway. This is why primer/powder/charge weight/density is so important, it creates uniform pressure on the bullet base. If the gas is pushing evenly, and the bullet is pointed in the right direction in the first place, then the bullet HAS to go straight since it's considerable inertia, even after a few thousandths of an inch of travel, must obey Newton's laws of motion. The only thing that can re-direct the bullet is a force stronger than the bullet's inertia during launch, which will of course be the steel of the throat or forcing cone. But we already know that vector forces strong enough to re-direct the bullet's flight in the throat are high enough to damage the bullet's shape on one side, and since we don't live in a perfect world, there must always be some damaging going on. So how to contend with that? First, nobody shoots one-hole, one caliber groups, so perfection is unattainable. Second, this is where your alloy, bullet shape, powder choice, and static fit will save you. It's the dynamic thing again. The bullet must self-align BEFORE velocity is so high that the bullet sustains damage from that alignment, so you see proper bullet shape/toughness DOES get you some wiggle room if you allow for it when you select components and create the cartridge. But you can only get away with just so much self-align capability before you have to rely on something else, the BUMP. The bump is a swage-to-perfect-fit operation which occurs IN the gun, and since the gun is what we're trying to fit, nothing can do it better, especially right in the big middle of a violent launch. Your components need to be selected to work together so that this bump/swage/DRAW thing occurs at the time it can do the most good, which is the time when the bullet can be out of alignment, which is in the throat/forcing cone, or whatever restriction we're forcing it through to get fully into the parallel dimensions of the barrel. We aren't extruding the bullet enough to completely re-form it, otherwise it wouldn't matter how crooked it was launched, it would still come out a straight slug of spaghetti. We only get a little bit, and although it's not enough to straighten out deformation from a bad sideways blow, it can be enough to correct the tiny misalignments that turn a half-inch group into a three inch group once high rotational forces start acting on the bullet. Success relies on a combination of every little thing we can do to get that bullet going straight, and just supporting the nose on the lands or in the cylinder throat isn't enough. This is what I have meant all the times I've written things like "the bullet must be given 'absolutely straight' as the path of least resistance, because it will always follow the path of least resistance". You create that path to begin with and guide it the whole way.....unless you give them a hard enough skin, make them hard enough to withstand ricocheting off of the various insides of the gun until they finally funnel into the middle of the bore, or accelerate them slowly enough that they just sort of wiggle into place when fired. Really, I think most of the time we're doing a little bit of all of this with a proper load. Another thing is the noses of the bullets, particularly rifle bullets, don't affect the flight all that much, particularly with revolvers. If the pointy tip of a bullet isn't perfectly straight with the rest of the bullet, it doesn't matter all that much. My M1A with all the mechanical problems it has STILL shoots 2" groups at around 2200 fps with bullet noses so mangled most people would fear pulling the trigger. If the rifle was right I'll bet it would do an inch with the same bullets, we'll find out soon enough. Single-loading perfect bullets didn't make a noticeable improvement in groups any more than letting it chew them up self-loading hurt them. That's just one example of the "fudge factor" we have with nose concentricity after the "bump" event.

The nose alone isn't strong enough to keep the bullet guided straight all by itself, so like I already said, it's just a bonus if the nose is supported when the cartridge is chambered. With revolvers you can get away with a lot because most bullets are basically cylinders to begin with, rifling twist rates are low, and velocities are comparatively low. Get consistent bang-bump from the case to the throat (repeatable jump created by consistent case neck tension and consistent ignition) and you'll get repeatable bump/swage/draw in the forcing cone so that the bullet can recover from any cylinder or other alignment problems by re-swaging to a balanced shape as it passes through the forcing cone area and into the barrel.....all provided that your alloy and powder pressure are correct when the bullet gets to the forcing cone, and provided your bullet left the confines of the brass pointed directly at the center of the muzzle.

Some things you can't force. Some things need to be forced more than you might think they do. I say that as I sit looking at some little 26 bhn gremlins for one of my rifles and try to figure out how much powder and how fast it will have to burn in order to bump them enough to shoot straight.
 
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Ian

Notorious member
Less brisance, they don't pop the crimp before the powder gets lit, especially with slow powders and high loading densities. Empirically, a whole bunch of us have swapped our own individual notes and discovered that accuracy is mo' betta' in certain loads when using Federal primers. Not a rule for everything, just a compelling trend.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Wow, well first . . . Let's keep this thread on track regarding revolvers.

There is much in that post that I strongly disagree with Ian. Actually most of it. Nothing in the below cut & pastes from your post has anything to do with long range revolver accuracy. It's simply incorrect thinking.

Wiggle room, extrusion, The bump is a swage-to-perfect-fit operation, bump/swage/DRAW thing, supporting the nose on the lands or in the cylinder throat, make them hard enough to withstand ricocheting off of the various insides of the gun, accelerate them slowly enough that they just sort of wiggle into place when fired, get repeatable bump/swage/draw in the forcing cone so that the bullet can recover from any cylinder or other alignment problems by re-swaging.


Very little to none of that going on in properly loaded long range revolver ammo. No ricocheting, no bump/swage/draw. If your loading like that your long range revolver groups will be disappointing. The bullet nose supports nothing and never touches anything until it gets to the target. As I've said in this thread and hundreds of times on the CB forum. Size the bullets to a mild snug fit in the throats. This means that you can hold the cylinder in your hand, place a bullet in each throat and they will stay there. They will not fall through but take mild tapping from a pencil (not a hammer and punch) to tap them through. Use a bullet with enough front driving band that it is fully inside the throat when the cartridge is chambered. Neck size the brass to help hold the rear of the brass in better alignment.

I'll say it yet again, the less you molest the bullet the better. NO swaging down, no obturating back up. NO bump/swage/DRAW going on. If the revolver is properly dimensioned and you make your ammo fit those dimensions what you chamber is what comes out the muzzle with only rifling engraving added.

The front driving band starts out in the throat, there is no place for it to go but straight forward. Once the bullet has moved forward far enough for the front driving band to enter the forcing cone and start to engrave the middle and rear bands are still inside the throat guiding it straight. By the time the front band is fully engraved the rear of the bullet is still in the throat. By the time the gas check clears the throat the front and middle bands are engraved and holding the bullet straight.

REVOLVER THROATS ARE NOT SIZER DIES.

I'll not argue the rifle loading with you because that's not where the vast majority of my experience is, it is with long range revolver. The concept of revolver loading you presented is just simply wrong.

 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
The front driving band starts out in the throat, there is no place for it to go but straight forward. Once the bullet has moved forward far enough for the front driving band to enter the forcing cone and start to engrave the middle and rear bands are still inside the throat guiding it straight. By the time the front band is fully engraved the rear of the bullet is still in the throat. By the time the gas check clears the throat the front and middle bands are engraved and holding the bullet straight.


That was what I was looking for. The front drive band is in the throat. That is what I think can be so critical, it lets the bullet start out growing straight. If the front drive band isn't in the throat then it is likely never going to hit the throat going straight and everything else is a crap shoot.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Brad, hat makes one giant assumption: That you prepared the case so that the middle and back bands ENTER the throat straight. If the back doesn't enter straight as it departs the case, one side gets wiped off before the base is even through the cylinder throat. You'll see this when it happens because groups suck, one side of the case is sooty, and the same side of the throat ahead of the sooting side will be spray painted with bullet dust. The back parts don't just follow-the-leader through the gun, the bullet is moving too quickly for that and has too much straight-line inertia. It's got to be in the middle, on both ends, from the beginning.

Rick, I'm sorry I was unable to write all that out in a way that made sense to you.
 
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358156hp

Guest
I've seen a lot of pics posted on other site where the loaded handgun ammo appears to have bullets seated crooked to me. I used to ask the OPs about them, but they usually got really defensive and personal, so I now just let them be. I have a terrible time with seating 9mm bullets straight at times.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
I can say in all honesty that I've never seated a 9mm bullet crooked.

If anyone's handgun ammo is so cock eyed that you can see it with the naked eye they are doing something very wrong. I had to roll my revolver match loads under a dial indicator to pick out thousands if an inch. When I first started loading 45 ACP I had a problem with seating them crooked. Turned out that there was too little belling. Giving them just a bit more so that the bullets sit in the case a bit deeper before the die started to push it in solved the problem.

Ok I'll fess up, I don't load for the 9 and never have BUT I've never seated one crooked. o_O
 
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358156hp

Guest
I see it as uneven bulges in the cases at the bullet base area. A little more bulge on one side vs. the other screams "crooked"! to me.