RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
More practice, work on benchrest technique and more practice. I have watched many beginner BR shooters, with winners' .1" rifles and ammo, shoot 1+ inch groups. Did I mention more practice?
Common Alloys And Their Uses
- Thread starter Dimner
- Start date
burbank.jung
Active Member
How and when do you you bullet casters measure the hardness of your lead? Let's start with a lead ingot? Do you scratch the surface with a lead pencil or do you case a small piece of the mixed lead from the pot, air cool it, and test for hardness before continuing? If the lead is too soft or doesn't fill out, do you then add a harder alloy or tin and then repeat your hardness test?
fiver
Well-Known Member
since I only got 3 piles of ingots it's pretty simple.
the big one is all my ww's and some other soft lead all mixed together and re-run together to insure it's all mixed properly and clean.
the second pile is the above mentioned 4/6 alloy.
the third is dead soft lead with a small amount [1%] of antimony mixed in.
there is a fourth pile, but it's out back in buckets waiting to be cleaned and blended.
the big one is all my ww's and some other soft lead all mixed together and re-run together to insure it's all mixed properly and clean.
the second pile is the above mentioned 4/6 alloy.
the third is dead soft lead with a small amount [1%] of antimony mixed in.
there is a fourth pile, but it's out back in buckets waiting to be cleaned and blended.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Hardness is not a holy grail, but only one measure of alloy quality. You also need castability, malleability and consistency. Just because it is hard doesn't mean you can shoot it faster. Lots of benchrest shooters use linotype for 1450 to 1600 f/s loads because it makes consistent bullets, not because it is hard. I feel you are putting too much emphasis on hardness.
Exactly, measuring hardness is just a quality control check for me. As long as I am in my range of 1.0 brinell +/- I'm good to go. Hitting an exact number like 14.0 on the dot is a waste of time, just get close. I think any alloy with 2% tin and vary the antimony from 2.5 to 6% will fill most shooters needs. 4% antimony works for me but I don't shoot in the high range of pressures.
Fiver makes a good point about bullet design, you have to match the bullet to the leade for top competition type accuracy and play around with OAL and crimps. Alloys get blamed unjustly when a change in OAL will fix the problem.
Tony
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Start off with dropping everything you've heard about "hardness" and just forget about it. If you are starting with something you know is a lead alloy like range scrap, wheel weights, or maybe boughten alloy, just start there. Accuracy with cast doesn't come from an alloy, especially a HARDCAST alloy. It comes from static and dynamic fit and working with that in a variety of ways that may or may not include the Bhn of an alloy. FWIW, I can take 3 different alloys and make them give you the exact same Bhn and I can take a single alloy and make it give 3 different Bhn readings. Stop worrying about Bhn and start worrying about fit!
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
What Bret said is pretty much on the money. Hardness is just another measurement,
A bit of knowledge we use if it becomes nesesary to use it.
Most of the time we can get around hardness issues by using fit, powder speeds, crimp , bullet jump, gas checks, type of lubes, or powder coating.
Most people here only mess with hardness as a consistency measure or IF it becomes an issue.
However if you want to measure for hardness go ahead, just another tool in the box. Get a hardness tester or a pencil set.
I use a pencil set. There are lots of video on this method, it will get you close enough. As 2 BHN is about the varience window, and it will be close enough.
Thing is with the pencil method is you must get the pencil to cut the lead not just put a shiny spot or dent a line on it. And it just be used on nothing bigger then a half pound ingot. Plus you must file the surface skin off it.If you want it to be Accurate.As in +or-1.
A bit of knowledge we use if it becomes nesesary to use it.
Most of the time we can get around hardness issues by using fit, powder speeds, crimp , bullet jump, gas checks, type of lubes, or powder coating.
Most people here only mess with hardness as a consistency measure or IF it becomes an issue.
However if you want to measure for hardness go ahead, just another tool in the box. Get a hardness tester or a pencil set.
I use a pencil set. There are lots of video on this method, it will get you close enough. As 2 BHN is about the varience window, and it will be close enough.
Thing is with the pencil method is you must get the pencil to cut the lead not just put a shiny spot or dent a line on it. And it just be used on nothing bigger then a half pound ingot. Plus you must file the surface skin off it.If you want it to be Accurate.As in +or-1.
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Mitty38
Well-Known Member
One thing to be warned of there are a lot of arm chair loaders out there, and people who's info is geared toward their commercial intrests, especially on other sights.
Also some who think info put on a chart 30 years ago is the same today.
Example wheel weights have not been made of a controlled alloy for a while.
There are still people who think they are a consistent. They are swearing by charts and publications who's sources are from 30 years ago.
In 6 different samples from 6 different sources. Clip on wheel weight alloy has varried 8 BHN to 12 BHN air cooled, in testing I have done. So how are you going to go by anything that says mix so much of this, beyond using it as a rough guage, if wheel weights are involved?
I would wager that there are a lot of people who started with 12 BHN Lead. Swearing they Have 12 BHN lead when they are Shooting 8 BHN and have not noticed a difference.
Also some who think info put on a chart 30 years ago is the same today.
Example wheel weights have not been made of a controlled alloy for a while.
There are still people who think they are a consistent. They are swearing by charts and publications who's sources are from 30 years ago.
In 6 different samples from 6 different sources. Clip on wheel weight alloy has varried 8 BHN to 12 BHN air cooled, in testing I have done. So how are you going to go by anything that says mix so much of this, beyond using it as a rough guage, if wheel weights are involved?
I would wager that there are a lot of people who started with 12 BHN Lead. Swearing they Have 12 BHN lead when they are Shooting 8 BHN and have not noticed a difference.
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Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Mitty, you've come a long way Grasshopper!
Burbank- read the part in Mittys post again where he says, "One thing to be warned of there are a lot of arm chair loaders out there, and people who's info is geared toward their commercial intrests, especially on other sights." Lotta truth right there! The whole "HARDCAST" thing looks like it got started as a selling point, but in reality it was about commercial casters wanting a way to ensure their product didn't get to the consumer with dings and dents all over them. "HARDCAST" had a snazzy "NEW! IMPROVED!" type sound to it and people were given the impression that leading and wild shooting was caused by the lead alloy being "too soft" and the lead "melting" and causing leading and wild shooting. Nothing could be further from the truth. Same for the super hard wax type lubes that were all the rage at one time. They were developed to ensure the bullets got to the buyer with their pretty lube in dazzling colors in the lube grooves and not pooled in the bottom of the box due to the 135F summer heat in the back of the Big Brown Truck. The fact most of those lubes sucked swamp water wasn't important.
So drop 90% of what you've heard or read in advertisements, on other boards or (Lord help us) down at the gunshop with the local barstool experts and read. I suggest this is a good place to start- http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm
Burbank- read the part in Mittys post again where he says, "One thing to be warned of there are a lot of arm chair loaders out there, and people who's info is geared toward their commercial intrests, especially on other sights." Lotta truth right there! The whole "HARDCAST" thing looks like it got started as a selling point, but in reality it was about commercial casters wanting a way to ensure their product didn't get to the consumer with dings and dents all over them. "HARDCAST" had a snazzy "NEW! IMPROVED!" type sound to it and people were given the impression that leading and wild shooting was caused by the lead alloy being "too soft" and the lead "melting" and causing leading and wild shooting. Nothing could be further from the truth. Same for the super hard wax type lubes that were all the rage at one time. They were developed to ensure the bullets got to the buyer with their pretty lube in dazzling colors in the lube grooves and not pooled in the bottom of the box due to the 135F summer heat in the back of the Big Brown Truck. The fact most of those lubes sucked swamp water wasn't important.
So drop 90% of what you've heard or read in advertisements, on other boards or (Lord help us) down at the gunshop with the local barstool experts and read. I suggest this is a good place to start- http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm
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CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
I have been running unalloyed lead SWCs through my 38 S&W revolvers for some years now. It fit is correct, there is NO LEADING--FOR HUNDREDS OF ROUNDS FIRED. The moulds involved are the NEI #169A, the 202 grain RN meant for the 38/200 in the Webley and S&W service wheelguns (.363" sizing) and the Lyman #358477 for the Colt PP and S&W RegPol (.359" and .361" respectively). The velocity ranges are from 600-725 FPS, so the pressures are docile.
OF COURSE, I could not possibly leave well enough alone. I had a couple hundred of the #358477s laying around, so I installed them (sized @ .358") into 38 Special cases at 800-900 FPS, and into 357 Magnum cases at 850-1000 FPS. Just because. Test beds were my Model 10 x 5" and Model 686 x 4". Lube was Alox/BW, powder used was Herco with CCI 500 priming. 50 rounds of each, NO LEADING.
I don't know what that "proves", other than in these tests I got no leading and the bullets were VERY ACCURATE. Size matters, and though smokeless powders are not supposed to be able to "Bump up" lead or its alloys like black powder is alleged to do, I am not convinced that is a "Never & always" proposition. My pure lead test drives in 38 Special and 357 Magnum were as accurate or better than those same revolvers' production with stern alloys and jacketed bullets. FWIW.
OF COURSE, I could not possibly leave well enough alone. I had a couple hundred of the #358477s laying around, so I installed them (sized @ .358") into 38 Special cases at 800-900 FPS, and into 357 Magnum cases at 850-1000 FPS. Just because. Test beds were my Model 10 x 5" and Model 686 x 4". Lube was Alox/BW, powder used was Herco with CCI 500 priming. 50 rounds of each, NO LEADING.
I don't know what that "proves", other than in these tests I got no leading and the bullets were VERY ACCURATE. Size matters, and though smokeless powders are not supposed to be able to "Bump up" lead or its alloys like black powder is alleged to do, I am not convinced that is a "Never & always" proposition. My pure lead test drives in 38 Special and 357 Magnum were as accurate or better than those same revolvers' production with stern alloys and jacketed bullets. FWIW.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Good example Al. The experty experts will tell you, swear on a stack of Bibles for that matter, that you can't possibly shoot plain lead out of a 357 without massive leading. Of course those are the same guys using Massad Ayoob as a reference for case law and self defense decisions too, so....
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
I have probably made every mistake possible when loading the .357. I have experienced major leading, only one time.
Was when I switched from Berry's plated to lead.
Shootin' those Meister hard casts, you know the ones with the pretty blue plastic looking lube.
Do not know if it was copper fowling or too hard a bullet and lube.
But went to Fivers cast bullets and never had an issue.
Started casting my own from whatever I could get, sized from .358 to 360 with lubes from alox to pan lube to powder coat. Never a major issue since I tossed the Meister's.
Was when I switched from Berry's plated to lead.
Shootin' those Meister hard casts, you know the ones with the pretty blue plastic looking lube.
Do not know if it was copper fowling or too hard a bullet and lube.
But went to Fivers cast bullets and never had an issue.
Started casting my own from whatever I could get, sized from .358 to 360 with lubes from alox to pan lube to powder coat. Never a major issue since I tossed the Meister's.
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Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
You know, it's funny, but I have NEVER leaded up a 38 or 357. I used to use the Skeeter load (HOT!) in 38's and I went though the "Faster had GOT to be better"phase and I used everything from bearing grease to brand name lubes and some of those loads even used old style swaged SWCs, Speer I think. Most was done with the 358156 and it is a GC design, but lots of people report the GC not stopping leading when you push the 357 up past 1200 and towards 13. Maybe I was just lucky. Now rifles OTOH, I know ALL ABOUT getting lead out of a rifle! And a 44 mag Ruger SBH. Pretty sure my elbow is still sore from opening that barrel back up to someplace close to factory specs! Learned that the "shoot a jacketed bullet base first and it'll clean all the leading out" doesn't work quite that way after the leading reaches a certain point. Boy, but those Rugers are strong. Never saw a primer flatten like that before...
I'll swap cleaning lead from a barrel any day for the mess I have now. Got a Krag with a major case--as in "can't see the rifling"--of jacket fouling. I've screwed up and heavily-leaded barrels before, but they were always easier to clean than this. And I'm not even going to get any fun out of it! I've got a good Krag, this one will go on the gun show table.
RBHarter
West Central AR
Kroil .