New 230 TC mold

[Ian]

Winchester cases have a lot less metal in the head area and dramatically more internal volume than Federal or Remington. I don't use them except when going somewhere that they'll be left on the ground empty. The volume difference alone could explain some things.

The Canadian Universal I have is distinctly purple and leaves the rainbow heat marks on the outside of the brass like Titegroup does, sounds like like you have the same stuff. Also, my bullets are air-cooled straight ww alloy at about 12.5 bhn, TL version of the mould. All the little details can make a difference.

 

[Ole_270]

Sounds like I need to empty some of my Starline brass to use. Only got around 6 cases of R-P and maybe 50 mixed range pickup, all loaded. My mold is the traditional lube groove version.
The leading I was getting concerned me enough to fire up the pot and mix it a little stouter. This barrel has touchy on that mater, might be something mechanical. Should be slightly over 1%Sn, 2%Sb now. I cast the full pot full and water dropped them. I'll empty some cases while the new lot fully hardens. Thanks for your patience and info.

 

[Pistolero]

What brand of TC die are you using?
"Still at .472".....isn't actually any crimp, not completely removing the flare, since the case OD should be .470,
and is on all of mine that I have measured. Unless your cases are somehow larger than .470, or your are measuring
something in a way I am not understanding, you aren't getting any taper crimp.

Brad has a thread on this topic. Look at his photo of the die and the result of using it. This is what you want.

45 acp taper crimp

Finally got a photo of a 15° taper crimp die I made. The first die I made, and used for most shooting until now, was less than 15°. Not sure what I soused but closer to 5-7° I would estimate. You can easily see how rapid a taper a 15° per side taper is. Compared to my Hornady taper crimp die...

artfulbullet.com

And you should never need hard bullets for .45 ACP unless you are wanting them to not expand. The cartridge
normally is fine with the softest bullets.

 

[Ole_270]

Might be that my caliper is off at that diameter range, I've seen it happen in 30 years of machine shop experience. I'm getting .472-473 a 1/16 or so below the case mouth, .471-472 as close to the case mouth as I can reliably set the calipers. Mold is the Lee conventional lube groove. Die set is Hornady.
I'm thinking most of the trouble is with the barrel. The chamber was out of alignment with the bore and didn't quite clean up when it was throated. I believe there is a slight shoulder left where it didn't clean up scraping that side of the bullet. I use PC bullets in 3 rifles up to 2400 fps with no problems at all, but this barrel causes more problems with PC than lube bullets. Needs a new barrel, but I'll see if I can get something to work first. I got the 200RF and 200 swc to work at modest velocities, hoping to get this one ironed out.

 

[Brad]

Scraping on one side could easily give leading along that land.
PC should give no leading unless the coating is damaged at some point or the coating/fit are out of whack.

 

[Pistolero]

OK, if you are getting .472-3 on the case, then you are getting some crimping. I agree it is difficult to
measure that last edge of the case, VERY fiddly. With a mic, I gt .470 on my cases and TC to .466-7 or so.
For target only loads, I have tried .470, meaning just straightening out the flare, and MAYBE that is
a touch more accurate in some of my most accurate 1911s. Maybe.

 

[Ole_270]

Scraping on one side could easily give leading along that land.
PC should give no leading unless the coating is damaged at some point or the coating/fit are out of whack.

This is pretty much what I'm thinking is happening. Had a thermometer in the oven and gave 30 minutes after the 400 degree mark was reached. Figured 400 air temp didn't mean the mass of lead had reached that temp. I feel like the coating is being damaged at the shoulder that didn't clean up.

 

[Ole_270]

OK, if you are getting .472-3 on the case, then you are getting some crimping. I agree it is difficult to
measure that last edge of the case, VERY fiddly. With a mic, I gt .470 on my cases and TC to .466-7 or so.
For target only loads, I have tried .470, meaning just straightening out the flare, and MAYBE that is
a touch more accurate in some of my most accurate 1911s. Maybe.

Add in me pulling the trigger and we get more "Maybe:.

 

[Ian]

And you should never need hard bullets for .45 ACP unless you are wanting them to not expand. The cartridge
normally is fine with the softest bullets.

Yup.

Unless the chamber throat has a really rough edge, it shouldn't lead, especially with .451+ bullets. Lots of times a .452+ bullet will lead in a 1911 because the end of the chamber is cut with a sharp, 90° edge between the chamber end and throat taper and the throat entrance is barely over .451". With loose-fitting brass in the chamber and extractor pressure (not to mention a hell for overdone crimp) the bullet starts out favoring one side of the chamber so much that 3-4 thousandths gets raked off as the bullet enters the throat. The scraped-off lead then smears down the barrel and the "thin" side of the bullet gets gas cut, exacerbating the leading.

I'm personally a fan of opening the throat entrance to at least .455", like a revolver's forcing cone. No way a .467" case mouth is going to go in there.

 

[Ole_270]

I changed the alloy trying to get a larger dia. I'm a fan of softer bullets, but this one was casting a bit small. Just got done running a batch through the sizer with a .452 die. Bullets mike .4525, so I loaded a few up with 5.4 Universal in Rem cases and ran them through the gun to see if they would fit. It ran fine, accuracy was good enough for a notoriously poor pistol shot to bang the 30 yard gong all but one shot out of the group off my hind legs. 7 rounds won't tell the story, but the bore and cleaning patch looked good. Might be getting closer
Question on the crimp. I was under the impression that a heavy crimp "might" scrape the sides of the softer bullet upon firing. You see about anything on the web. This is why I've just been taking the flair off the case mouth instead of putting more pressure on it. Any truth to that?

 

[Brad]

Measure a fired case at the mouth. Compare that to a loaded round. Bet a bullet slips right into the fired case.
The case expands enough on firing to make the crimp a non issue the way you are talking.

One thing you DO want to be concerned with is using a crimp die that resizes the bullet. Some taper crimp dies have a very shallow angle and by the time you get the crimp you want the front half, or more, of the bullet has been sized down .001 or more.

Now you can see why Bill is so hung up on the TYPE of crimp, not just the amount. A steeper angle on the crimp means just the very front of the case mouth is crimped so very little bullet is affected.

 

[Ole_270]

Measure a fired case at the mouth. Compare that to a loaded round. Bet a bullet slips right into the fired case.
The case expands enough on firing to make the crimp a non issue the way you are talking.

One thing you DO want to be concerned with is using a crimp die that resizes the bullet. Some taper crimp dies have a very shallow angle and by the time you get the crimp you want the front half, or more, of the bullet has been sized down .001 or more.

Now you can see why Bill is so hung up on the TYPE of crimp, not just the amount. A steeper angle on the crimp means just the very front of the case mouth is crimped so very little bullet is affected.

I believe the Hornady is one of those shallow tapers

 

[Brad]

I believe the Hornady is one of those shallow tapers

I know mine is.

 

[Ian]

So is the Redding. Useless. Lee's taper-crimp die is excellent, but it must be the stand-alone, taper-only die, not the seat/crimp die or the goofy FCD with the post-sizing sleeve and seating punch.

 

[Pistolero]

Frankly the Hornady and Redding with the 1 degree taper or whatever are a really bad idea.
The Lee and OLD RCBS dies (buy used on eBay with 80s date - they have a date stamped on the end of old dies)
and you will get really nice taper crimps. But NOT the Lee "factory crimp" die with the extra carbide
sizing ring, either. Just plain TC die.

Bill

 

[CZ93X62]

I have taken to using the tungsten-carbide suzer die's radius at the T/C insert to do my taper-crimping in 40 S&W and 10mm. Just a light "kiss" does the trick--visible bevel, full case mouth edge presentation for headspacing. Zero bullet crush as well. I remove the decapping guts from the sizer die and reset its depth to set the taper crimp.

I have 1980s-vintage taper crimp dies in 45 ACP and 9mm.

 

[Pistolero]

Interesting idea, Al.

 

[Brad]

Once I get one made a taper crimp die is heading to SE KS.

 

[Ole_270]

Can't thank Brad enough, or any of you guys. Everyone is ready to help with information. I've been loading shotgun since the mid-sixties, rifle since early 70s and casting for the 25-20 since late 80s. Pistol shooting and loading are both new to me and it's obvious to anyone with experience that I needed help. You guys have been just what I needed. Thanks again.

 

[Pistolero]

You are very welcome. It is good to help, and I like passing on things that I have learned over a few decades
of loading MASS QUANTITIES of .45 ACP ammo, at least 5000 rds per year, and many years twice or three times
that for IPSC matches and practice sessions. Over 35 years, I would have to guess that I have loaded
well north of 100K of the stuff, perhaps exceeding 200K. I kinda wish I had made a notch on the shelf for
every 1,000 primers used for .45 ACP. I normally keep at least 20,000 lg pistol primers on hand or more.

And, also learning from helping other shooters with their loading problems, many newbies. Saw a lot of
things, had to sort them out. By the 6th or 7th time somebody has the same basic problem, you get it figured
out, usually.

Bill