so waht ya doin today?

Chandler

Member
I know y'all don't really know me but I love this place. I agree with just about everything I read here. So much so I can't really find much to squeeze into the conversations. Do the pharma companies really think we are all too stupid to know what they are doing or what they have done? A pharma epidemic does not happen by chance as in a mistake in record keeping. It is a strategy that has worked in the past and involved lots of payoffs.
 

Brad

Administrator
Staff member
My personal view is this.
In the 90s it was decided that we didn’t adequately treat pain. Doctors were told to take pain seriously. Combine that with the release of a new wonder drug-OxyContin. A sustained release, twice a day, oxycodone formula. The manufacturer sold it as a miracle drug. I had a drug rep tell me it was good for things as common as a broken arm. No real abuse potential they told the doctors despite the fact it is a C2 medication which means it is highly addictive.
Took a few years but soon enough people learned it could be ground up and snorted or injected. Instant high, similar to heroin.
Took another decade for the govt to start harping on it and lead to formulations that resisted the grinding and injecting.
What happens over time is that people find it is cheaper and easier to get heroin than the prescription pain killers.
As a pharmacist I fear robbery for drugs far more than robbery for cash. The addicts get desperate and armed robberies of pharmacies are a real problem. I know of one that was broken into overnight and pretty much cleaned out of controlled drugs. Some are entered thru a broken drive thru window. Sledge hammers open those pretty well it seems. Get in, grab what you want, and get out.
Oxycodone is currently worth roughly a buck a milligram. An RX for 30 tabs of 5 mg oxycodone is worth 150 plus on the street.

Who is to blame? Lots to go around. Drug companies got greedy. Regulatory agencies got lazy. Doctors fell prey to scam artists and became lax in limiting prescribing. Doctors listened to the song and dance given by drug sales rep and failed to look into thing objectively. Pharmacies didn’t ask questions. Most of all people decided that feeling good equaled good health care.
 

KeithB

Resident Half Fast Machinist
How about a pharma epidemic initiated as a profitable form of low key warfare by one government on another - I'm talking of the British Opium War on China.
 

KeithB

Resident Half Fast Machinist
Brad - when my FIL died of lung cancer some 50 years ago all he got was aspirin and tylenol for pain. It was a horrid experience for all involved. He SHOULD have been given big handfuls of opioids. When they whacked off my foot I had a spinal for three days then a scrip for lortab 7.5s. Out of the prescribed 30 I still have a dozen left. Not brave but just not that responsive to the pain of a clean surgery sans any post-op infection. Other folks I've talked to have suffered much more pain and need stronger pain meds.

In any case if its addictive it should always have some type of monitoring. My doctors have been pretty good at checking up on that. I hope the current focus on stopping the abuse doesn't cause an over-reaction that ends up hurting folks that may really need opiates.
 

Brad

Administrator
Staff member
The opiates are really intended for severe pain, things like cancer. What happened is they got used for all sorts of dental procedures, any sort of even minor surgery, and every day aches and pains.
Just like alcohol some people have an addictive tendency and with even short term use develop an abnormal affinity for the drugs.
Lots of work being done by surgeons, orthopedic in particular, on alternative pain management strategies. That work just needs to trickle down to the primary care providers.
 

Chandler

Member
Not everyone handles pain the same but in my experience, even a broken bone doesn't require an opiate to cope with the pain. I think we are turning the corner with this issue and hopefully we stop the abuse. Heroin abuse was taught in school in the 60's and its amazing it is still a topic of epidemic today. There is big money behind it all.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
I tracked down a brake leak in the F250 , I had thought it was a master cylinder or the trailer brake box .........
Left rear wheel ...... Turned the wheel seal inside out when the hub came off . No big deal I had one because I had one just in case the black goo slung off the sidewall was gear oil .
Airplane mechanic says " as long as you knocked that seal out of there you may as well dust off that bearing and have loooo" damn pits ...... Ms ? Parts run .
The outter bearing was rust pitted too .
While Ms was gone for the bearings I discovered that the cylinder can't be honest in place . Broke the line off ........this was the same one that had the gator back wrapped around it last spring . So not a real big surprise either ..... Thanks for the bearings , brake line please . 20 min later in the drill press and the wheel cylinder looked presentable . New cups , spring , caps , cleaned up the pins and the bleeder . Drive the inner races out and new ones in . Hand pack the wet run bearings so they run long enough to get wet again . Just a note , appearently a Dana 60 is now a Spicer 61/Ford full floating axle ....... Do not damage , lose or allow the axle nut to be damaged , it's more than a replacement brake cylinder , inner seal , and the full set of bearings . Did I mention the need for an adapter from the flex line to the new hard line ? Good news , it was probably the fastest , easiest bleed I've ever done and definitely the first time I've had the patience , time , and tools all in hand to actually do it 100% right .
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
hoofed it up the mountain twice today.
seen a lot of deer but none with Antlers, then I finally did see a pretty fair little 2 point and just watched him walk off in the middle of 6 does.
it was too chancy to try the shot with them all walking through the trees like that.
went over to another canyon at mid day and chatted with a couple of guy's from Washington I have been talking to for years now, they started hunting in that area when I used to hunt there most every year and we would run into each other on the mountain from time to time.
they hadn't seen hardly anything all day.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
When I had my femur fracture in '99, had to wait about 4 hours while the docs decided
whether I needed to go into surgery that night or the next day. No pain meds during wait,
may have needed general anesthtic. Not that bad,

I have a pretty high pain threshold. They gave me a shot of morphine , (I had no input,
no idea what it was until next day) to move me from ER to hospital via ambulance, and two
bed to gurney, gurney to bed moves.

They tried demoral (?) first, instant massive nausea, countered by another
shot, then went loopy, then to sleep, then woke up at 3 hrs in pain, with a 4 hr shot interval.
They switched me to morphine pump, perfectly lucid, zero pain. Off in two days, I was concerned
about addiction. Nothing beyond tylenol or aspirin after that.

Oxycontin was tried once for a back injury, severe constipation from a single pill. Never again.

I am an aspirin user for pain, very effective, always after a meal. Works for me, maybe not for
others.

Bill
 
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smokeywolf

Well-Known Member
Never been the addictive type. After nearly 5 months on Oxys, woke up one morning and felt like crap. Decided the Oxys were contributing more to my rotten mood and outlook than the pain caused by my ruptured disc. Last trip to the pain management doc, he said, "you must need another refill of Oxys by now." I said, "nope, still have 80-something left from the last bottle."

Only take them now when my back muscles go into spasm or when I have to pass a kidney stone.
 

Bret4207

St Lawrence river valley, NY
Oldest boy got hooked on pot/oxy. Has 2 cousins with the same fair hair and skinny build with the same addictive tendency, which we assume is hereditary. Don't even try to tell me pot isn't addictive. Maybe it isn't in the medical sense, but mentally it most certainly is. Son weaned himself off after 10 years of hell for us. Won't even take Tylenol now. One cousin has a ruined liver and can't exist w/o Mommy satisfying every want he thinks of or he'll attempt suicide, and has several times. Last month it was because she wouldn't buy him the newest I phone. Other one seems to cope, but it's a struggle, not sure what his crutch of choice was. I have zero tolerance for the pro-drug crowd. As a medicine for pain, for dealing with mental issues, for treating a symptom of something, fine. Medicine is wonderful. As another crutch for human weaknesses, drugs, booze or what ever your choice is just makes life harder for everyone. Are the drug companies and doctors to blame? Maybe. But if we're going to blame them then we might as well start blaming the booze companies for alcoholism and the gun companies for gun violence. It's the people using.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Oxycontin was tried once for a back injury, severe constipation from a single pill. Never again. Bill
When I broke my knee I was taking Oxycontin, after two weeks on the stuff I found out why the constipation. Two weeks without sitting on the throne is worse than the broken knee. Was prescribed the same stuff twice more after that for two different surgeries, never took a single one of them the first time and didn't even fill the script the next time.

People taking that stuff just to get high is in my opinion a solid definition of insanity.
 

Winelover

North Central Arkansas
Averaged fourteen pain pills for each of the two knee replacements. Took them only before bed as a sleep aid. Don't particularly care for them or their side effects.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
I dunno about comparing doctors and drug companies to guns being a fair comparison Bret. Doctors writing enough scripts for every single person in town to have 6,500 pills is pretty shocking. By definition they are not doctors, they are drug pushers and belong in prison.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
I went through a life run where if there was anything to drink in the house I would . I also had a dalliance w/antidepressants the 2 resulted in me not giving a rats tail about anything along with some side effects that made the reason I was doing it in the first place worse ......... Details for a campfire and a bottle of brandy some time .
I will also freely admit that I like Codine , Vicodin , Tylenol 3 , ACPs and several other variations a lot , but I also have some left laying around that should have been dumped some time ago . I was also very disappointed that the Morphine when I had my appendix removed just made me sleepy and lose time . Very disappointed .
My oldest daughter was given Oxy after a car accident when she was in the USN . It didn't anything for her or the pain . Aspirin in fact Buffrin was much better for her .
The oldest boy on the other hand gets goofy on Clariton and loses days with a Tylenol 3 .

To my knowledge in 5 generations cigarettes are the only addiction that's been had , and I don't , never have smoked . My Dad quit when they were 35¢ in the machines . He said even after 45 yr sometimes when things were just so he'd find himself looking for a lighter he hadn't carried in that long . Me and my kids just turn it off .

I side with the addictive personality theory . I have things I like to do and I'd do them 50 times a day if I could but 0-200 in 1760 feet and 30 min flat from Toole to Wendover Ut get expensive quick so I settle for an occasional sniff of either over the loading bench .
 

Bret4207

St Lawrence river valley, NY
I dunno about comparing doctors and drug companies to guns being a fair comparison Bret. Doctors writing enough scripts for every single person in town to have 6,500 pills is pretty shocking. By definition they are not doctors, they are drug pushers and belong in prison.
Rick, whats' fair in a political issue? And that's what this is, be it opiates or guns or booze or porn. In all cases it's a provider meeting a demand. My point is that if there weren't the demand in the first place there wouldn't be the problems. Doctors, the medical profession as a whole, in my opinion, is just as capitalist as any other. People want treatment, an easy fix. The Drug co.s offer answers (and kickbacks I imagine) and the drs try the NEW! IMPROVED! versions of what ever comes down the line. If they develop an addiction, well, statistically how many are addicted and how many addicts can wean themselves vs the number of people that are helped? I maintain that the vast majority of addicts to opiates didn't get their start at a Dr's office. It was a party someplace where they got started and after that they developed "pain" and the Dr filled the need. Just my opinion based on my experience locally. Doctors weren't prescribing meth or heroin or crack or LSD or coke or any of the myriad other addictive drugs we also have problems with. It's just in the news now that opiates are the newest problem. Again, demand is met one way or the other. Who is providing the demand? The doctors, gun makers, alcohol makers or porn makers? Or is it the end user? I'm not saying Drs don't so totally stupid things. They had my 84 year old senile FIL on 100mg of Viagra daily. The guy couldn't get up out of a chair on his own. But he talked about things he did in the 50's like it was today so some idiot decided he needed Viagra, and Medicare paid for it! So, yeah, stupid ain't limited to those without MD after their name. But someone has to want it in the first place. We can argue over apt comparisons and whats is or isn't "fair", but right now the Drs are facing the same deal as the guys that make AR's or Glocks. Is it their fault when something is used illegally? That is the question, right?
 

Hawk

Well-Known Member
Got a niece that is going to prison for her third arrest for possession of crystal meth. She's 33 years old.
She was always a wild one. Mother was a bar tender that died of an overdose in 2001.
I don't think prison is going to help her.
What was it the guy on TV said, "I went to prison with a degree in engineering and came out with a PHD in drug trafficking".
 

waco

Springfield, Oregon
Thread drift!!!!!!
Bought an 8 pounder of both 2400 and H4895 along with 5k pistol primers. Padding my stash for the next run on components.
Get it while the getting is good...
 
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Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Thread drift? If that's what ya did today that's what ya did. Title of the thread . . .

So what ya doin today?

Waco bought powder & primers today. Right on topic. Which thinking about it is kinda strange around here. :confused:
 
Reactions: Ian