What do we know about shooting cast in extreme cold weather?

Chris

Chris

Well-Known Member
Ian said:
Chris, read this: http://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/four-quarters-bullet-lube.1814/

It's sort of a synopsis with a lot of the back story missing from all the many extreme cold lube tests that Pete did. Another lube that worked well for him was a modified version of 357Maximum's "Satan's lube" called 666+1 which is six parts each beeswax, Vaseline, and paraffin with one part of Ivory soap blended in.

Pete is interested in achieving two things that lube can affect: Cold barrel flyers and overall consistency of grouping over time from dirty, normalized barrels. Below 10°F lots of problems with common lube ingredients start to creep up which Pete systematically identified and eliminated. ATF, lanolin, lithium soap grease, and animal fats were among the bad ones.
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Thanks, Ian. Now we're cooking with gas! keep me in mind if you can re-discover the back story on Pete and his test protocol and results.

It's becoming clear that I will be doing some of my own testing. I don't suppose you guys might have some of the 4Q lube laying around unused, by any chance?

Random question: I have a few tubes of a Randy Rat lube laying around, it is green in color. Someone said it does ok in the cold... can anyone verify that or comment on what might be in it... or how it does in general?
 
Ian

Ian

Notorious member
Most of the "back story" is lost to history. Much of it was on a forum whose moderator lost his mind and deleted the threads from entire sections where Pete had posted a lot of data. Much of it was spread over years of pm's from various forums and emails, many of which would be hard to find. I think some of the information was on CB in the Extreme Lube thread, if you feel like going over 3,000+ posts. Best thing I can tell you is skip to the end and just pick up with the lubes Pete mentioned in the Four Quarters thread.

Randyrat made a reasonable facsimile of Speed Green, but he may or may not have included the small liquid Alox proportion or the carnauba ingredient, you'd have to ask Randy. Speed Green is supposed to be good in the cold, but I noted that Pete did not think so or he wouldn't have continued his own personal quest.
 
fiver

fiver

Well-Known Member
Eutetic

the simple lube [V-1] would tend to shoot high in the cold because it is a minimal lube or an almost dry lube that is open to additions and subtractions.
if more atf or 2 stroke was added it would change the way it worked in the lower temperatures.

one thing to keep in mind is it is not all about the lube itself.
what you are fighting is what is in the barrel at the time.
the residuals from yesterday or last Thursday will influence that first shot.
pre-conditioning the barrel will change that first shot outcome.

it happens with jacketed too.
think about after you clean your rifle what happens.
your dealing with that in reverse with cast.
 
Chris

Chris

Well-Known Member
fiver said:
Eutetic

the simple lube [V-1] would tend to shoot high in the cold because it is a minimal lube or an almost dry lube that is open to additions and subtractions.
if more atf or 2 stroke was added it would change the way it worked in the lower temperatures.

one thing to keep in mind is it is not all about the lube itself.
what you are fighting is what is in the barrel at the time.
the residuals from yesterday or last Thursday will influence that first shot.
pre-conditioning the barrel will change that first shot outcome.

it happens with jacketed too.
think about after you clean your rifle what happens.
your dealing with that in reverse with cast.
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Very interesting re: first shot flyers

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/thread/1472-first-shot-flyer's/

Oh for sure any experiment I make should include having the bore "seasoned" with the lube being tested. Thanks for the reminder. I almost never clean my cast rifles anyway.
 
Chris

Chris

Well-Known Member
Suppose that an experiment called for 20 shots each of bullets lubed with many different lubes. maybe 10 iterations of 20 shots each if I can come up with 10 lubes worth trying.

What is the best procedure to avoid influence of shots by the previous lube, how best to clean and condition the barrel?

Would this work: after shooting a string, clean the bore using patches and Ed's Red or such, make dry, patch with the next lube to be fired, then shoot a couple shots to season the bore. Then let rifle sit in the cold until it assumes ambient temp and then shoot for effect, noting where the first cold bore shot hits relative the group. Does that makes sense?

Starting to think of conducting an experiment if I can get into the range after Christmas.
 
Ian

Ian

Notorious member
Fiver said a couple of big mouthfuls there, make sure to mull it over really well.
 
Ian

Ian

Notorious member
Chris said:
Would this work: after shooting a string, clean the bore using patches and Ed's Red or such, make dry, patch with the next lube to be fired, then shoot a couple shots to season the bore. Then let rifle sit in the cold until it assumes ambient temp and then shoot for effect, noting where the first cold bore shot hits relative the group. Does that makes sense?
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Yes.

Two, ten-shot groups fired 24 hours apart starting at fully-normalized temperature for ammunition and rifle will wring out the whole system pretty well. Five shot groups fired rapidly are more than adequate for testing hunting loads. I doubt you will find a lube that doesn't start to wander the load a little as the barrel warms up unless you wait 15 minutes between each shots.
 
Chris

Chris

Well-Known Member
Ian, my first hypothesis is that the first shot from a cold fouled bore will be out of the group to an unknown extent. Second hypothesis related to the first, that the group will wander from the first shot. Purpose of experiment is to see which, if any, lube will shoot to point of aim on the first shot if that is possible.

In other words agreeing with you. You think the cleaning/seasoning procedure I mentioned is adequate to provide uniform bore conditions for each lube? Is it a good enough seasoning?
 
Ian

Ian

Notorious member
The first shot will be out of the warm-barrel group by 1-4 MOA with most lubes. All the first shots should group with a good lube, and that is very very important to determine. Overlay your targets and observe the first shot POI and score them for a group. Either sight in for the first shot's POI or adjust your cold-shot load to shoot to warm barrel POI. As long as you KNOW what the rifle will do each shot and can put the bullet where you want, a fully-transparent lube isn't essential.

Some lube and powder combinations leave a residue which decomposes, dries out, oxidizes, etc. over a few days or weeks time. You need to periodically verify your load under all sorts of shooting and storage conditions to be sure that the fouled bore condition is a stable one and will allow you to accurately predict the first or any other shot's POI.
 
KHornet

KHornet

Well-Known Member
Was 8 degrees when I fired my first round at the range this a.m., and 11 degrees when I left the range about 2 hours later. Wanted to test 2 things, BR and BLL in cold, and new NOE Mold 316202-PB, BH about 12.5, three days after casting. All air cooled. All 50 yds.

Shot 70 rds in three Milsurps two 303's over 100 yrs old, and a M38Mosin, that is 70 yrs old, all as issue. Loads for all three rifles were .313, BR one coat of BLL, over 8 gr. American Select, Win LR pr. Not much wind when I started, and about 5-8K as I was leaving. I did no prelim shooting, just sat on the bench and shot, one rifle at a time. Center groups (after I figured out elevations necessary) averaged about 2-2 1/2"), all three bores were clean, no residue.
Not real scientific, but I satisfied myself that BR and BLL shoot in the cold, and that the new bullet is a keeper.
 
Barn

Barn

Active Member
I have some of Randyrat's green stuff and some Speed Green. They look and feel like two different animals. The Speed Green is a darker color and softer. I had good results with the Speed Green a some years ago in the winter time. That was before I got corrupted by the "Extreme" thread.

Let me know if you want to try some Speed Green.
 
Chris

Chris

Well-Known Member
Barn said:
I have some of Randyrat's green stuff and some Speed Green. They look and feel like two different animals. The Speed Green is a darker color and softer. I had good results with the Speed Green a some years ago in the winter time. That was before I got corrupted by the "Extreme" thread.

Let me know if you want to try some Speed Green.
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Thanks, Barn. I might take you up on it by PM.

I am interested in doing a solid experiment if a few others would offer appropriate lube samples for me to finger lube. I have Lars 2500+, NRA, 45-45-10, Randy Rat green, various greases. Have enough beeswax, vaseline etc to make some simple lubes but I can't see myself making all sorts of cool lubes at home just to lube 20 bullets each.

Anyone wants to contribute something that makes sense for cold weather let me know. I will reimburse shipping and credit you here.
 
fiver

fiver

Well-Known Member
I just made a huge batch of homo lube or I would send you about 19 different winter time lubes to have fun with.

in between lubes I would work at something simple and repeatable for a cleaning regiment.
ed's red and a dry patch or two followed by a single Atf dampened patch would be easy enough and give a fairly reasonable starting point.
 
F

freebullet

Guest
(Thinking to self) wonder if Fiver has ever accidently created toxic chemical vapors when mixing his special lubes.:p

I'm excited to finally try the batch of Glenn's moly, I made quite some time ago-in the cold.
 
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