Cheap bullets and not loading the way you're "supposed to"

[Joshua]

Well now I know why I only shot ten rounds out of my brother in law’s 30-30 94 when I was 15. It hurt worse than my 870 Wingmaster with its steel butt plate. I was stout and stocky even back then, 180 and 5’ 8” at that age. He made fun of me and said that his daughter could shoot it all day long, she was a year older and only weighed 115 pounds wet.

 

[Rushcreek]

Shooting Dad's 94 30-30 in the summer left a checkered red area on my bony teen shoulder- the exact pattern of the steel buttplare. I had Jes up it to 38-55, and if I load it past 1600fps it will leave the same mark through a jacket- or so it feels!
My bolt action 30-30 with a classic stock and plastic buttplate is pleasant with all loads.

 

[todd]

it never bothered me shooting my m94 in 30-30. on a bench or standing or sitting, heck i was even laying down shooting the 30-30. when i was 12yo my deer gun was a Savage pump gun in 20ga. the next year, i using a borrowed Win m94 in 32 Special. then i got a Win m94(1972) in 30-30 from my grandpap at Christmas. i killed ALOT of deer with it. foxes, feral dogs/cats, groundhogs, skunks, racoons....and a whole bunch of other stuff was shot by my 30-30. i think i was 5' when i was 12yo. when i turned 16yo, i was 5'9"(i stayed there now). my growth spurt was when i turned 15yo and i shot up 7 or 8".

i "think" the 30-30 was a good choice for me. at the time, i didn't reload, so factory ammo (which was cheap) was it for me. i saved my brass because someday, someone will load it for me. i didn't know it, but someone is me .

the recoil of the m94 is like a scoped Rem m700 BDL in 243 Win, or a gentle nudge on your shoulder. i have shot 375 H&H, 416 Rem and Rigby, 458 Win mag, 460 Weatherby mag and others, but in no way will i shoot a 338 Rem Ultra Mag again!!! back before my stroke, my friend (RIP) had a Rem m700 laminate in 338 RUM. he came over one day to shoot it. being a gun nut, i HAD to shoot it. now, I had to sit to make use of my sandbags. i lined up the shot and gently pulled the trigger......the shot landed in the exact middle of a 1" steel target (4"x 4" x 1") at 100 yards. unfortunately, i did not see it. the recoil was fierce. it actually made me afraid to shoot it AGAIN. my shoulder agreed with me, the pain in my shoulder was enuff for me. as a matter of fact, it turned black and blue almost instantly!!! it took me about a week to put the pain down to acceptable levels. the 338 RUM and the m700 made me cry!!! i'll take a 460 Weatherby every day and twicet on Sunday before i even think of the 338 RUM.

the only thing i can think of is the stock and sitting down to shoot it. this was in '02 or '03 (?) and it was the first run of the 338 RUM, so i don't know if they changed the stock or recoil pad or whatever. i probably should have stood and leaned it up against the pole. that probably would make the recoil pulse (or punch/slap...) bearable.

i'll take a m94 TE over a m336 any day. i don't own a m336, but i have handled them. the Winchester is lighter than the Marlin, mostly because the Marlin has a scope. i like my levers un-scoped. my eyes ain't what they used to be, but put an aperture sight on the m94 and it is better than it was.

 

[Bret4207]

Mine too. I will take a Marlin over a Win every time.

I only we got the Win fit and finish on a Marlin.

You did on the old Marlins. They got chubby in the 60's IIRC and the fit and finish went downhill compared to the stuff from the 50's and earlier.

I own one of each- one 94 win, one 336SC Marlin. If I had to choose I'd keep the Marlin, but it's simply a much nicer rifle in a much more useful caliber- 35 Rem. Now, throw a Savage 99 in the mix and we're going to sweat bullets making a choice!

 

[Ian]

You did on the old Marlins. They got chubby in the 60's IIRC and the fit and finish went downhill compared to the stuff from the 50's and earlier.

I own one of each- one 94 win, one 336SC Marlin. If I had to choose I'd keep the Marlin, but it's simply a much nicer rifle in a much more useful caliber- 35 Rem. Now, throw a Savage 99 in the mix and we're going to sweat bullets making a choice!

I keep hearing this and I'm still not believing it. My 1954 cut rifled 336 had the worst machining inside and out and worst wood fitment and wood to metal fit of any levergun, any brand, I've ever seen. Makes Rossi look like Turnbull. Meanwhile, my 1966 336 Texan is pretty good. Wood is sappy on one edge and the sanding and varnish are not great but the metal polish and fit of everything is great. I haven't had to tweak anything on it and you know how I am about re-engineering and re-bedding everything so that's saying a lot for Marlin. My 1993 JM is also good on both fit and finish, only problem is the nickel boron bolt plating started flaking off so badly it was jamming the works. I polished it out and polished the bolt raceway and haven't had any more trouble with it.

If your old Marlin don't look right, fix it! Less than $80 for the wood, little sanding here and there to perfect the fit, bed the tangs, good to go.

 

[L Ross]

Never understood that possum belly fore end. The only Marlin centerfire lever gun I own is a sweet, oh so sexy Model 1894 in .38-40 from way back, 1911 something like that. It still has some original color case on the receiver and the entire gun looks right. If Henry rifles weren't so gawd awful homely I might actually consider one. With all the fancy machining whiz bang computers available today, why can't a manufacturer take a sleek old Winchester or Marlin, show the damned computer what a gun should look like and tell it to copy the durned thing!

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

Any one own/owned a Browning BLR??

Talk about stock/recoil!! That design might look great/perfect... But it causes much muzzle rise in my 358 to the point it can rip the fore stock right out of your grip putting the scope right into your eyebrow if your not careful!!

I have shot two 358 Rifles since and they are pussy cats in comparison. I dont shoot factory loads in that gun because of that!

CW

 

[fiver]

i'll say it again.
there's this guy named Rollin Oswald.
he wrote a book, a very good book, it explains stock fit and recoil mitigation.
not only does it reduce recoil, it also helps the gun point where your looking.

when i was figuring this stuff out you should have seen a couple of my rifles and shotguns, they had some spandex, safety pins, duct tape and closed cell foam wrapped around them.
right now one of those shotguns has some cut yard sticks, paper tape, wood glue, and a silver BB as it's 'sighting' system.
it don't kick though.

anyway some of the rifle makers are starting to figure this stuff out, i'm starting to see a lot more 4-5 way adjustable stocks out there.

 

[Ian]

Good fit even looks dumb in custom fancy hardwood, but it don't kick! Well, not me, anyways.



Edit to add, mote the angle of the crescent butt plate and compare that to a lit of factory rifles. I actually massaged the brass a bit to angle it back some at the top, which makes a lot of difference to felt recoil when you vector the force twice befor it goes into your shoulder.

 

[richhodg66]

I never found the recoil from a '94 to be that objectionable. To be fair, I haven't shot a lot of full power loads through one in a long time.

I have a few '94s, and a few Marlins. The Marlins are all waffle tops, can't ever turn off the instant disgust at the ones with push button safeties to even handle one without feeling like I need to go take a long shower.

Marlins scope easier and don't seem to have so much slack in the trigger to take up when shooting. However, Winchesters don't develop that damn "Marlin Jam" and the firing pin design of the Marlins sure seems to encourage misfires.

If I wasn't going to scope it and all other things like caliber it's chambered in being equal, I think I'd slightly prefer a Winchester. All that said, pretty much ANY Savage 99 is so superior to either Marlins or Winchesters that the argument about best lever gun stops there.

I have several 99s. They tend to be good shooters with cast and the one in .358 is likey to be the closest thing in existence to the perfect deer rifle, at least with the conditions and tactics I hunt with. I really ought to just stop messing with anything and let that rifle collect the venison, but I like messing with new rifles too much.

 

[Ian]

No argument from me about the Savage. The rotary magazine, true CRF, elegant trigger shape, and striker firing mechanism are but a few of its superior qualities.

I got over the cross bolt safety when I discovered I could make a cool brass saddle ring and stud to replace it. Then I actually bought and used the rifle and found that the ability to cycle the magazine empty indoors without risking an ND is actually quite worth it so I never replaced it, though I do keep a couple of extra nitrile O-rings in the hunting bag in case I ever take it hunting and want to lock out the hammer safety. People give me endless crap over my indifference to the Henry centerfire magazine loading tube and lack of a loading gate but I don't care because it makes unloading easy, doesn't split my thumbnail in that weak spot it has from an injury, and doesn't scratch brass. If I ever expect to get into a long, running gunfight from horseback I'll be taking my AR-15 anyway so no di hace.

 

[richhodg66]

On the subject of the Savage 99 Magazine, anything else is not a Savage 99. Those horrid abominations with the detachable mags make me even more disgusted than the crossbolt safeties on the Marlins. I would simply not own or even touch one.

Personally, I never understood all the crying guys did about the no loading gate Henry rifles. I kind of like the idea of the magazine loading from the front, though I've never owned or used one.

 

[JustJim]

i'll say it again.
there's this guy named Rollin Oswald.
he wrote a book, a very good book, it explains stock fit and recoil mitigation.
not only does it reduce recoil, it also helps the gun point where your looking.

The book blurbs etc focus on shotgun fit and shotgunning; how much of it is applicable to rifles and rifleshooting?

I only go to shoot with my father once: when I was 3 he sat me on his lap and we shot a magazine through his 94 carbine. I never thought the recoil of the 30-30 was objectionable, though a couple boxes of 375 were unpleasant .

 

[Ian]

The book blurbs etc focus on shotgun fit and shotgunning; how much of it is applicable to rifles and rifleshooting?

I only go to shoot with my father once: when I was 3 he sat me on his lap and we shot a magazine through his 94 carbine. I never thought the recoil of the 30-30 was objectionable, though a couple boxes of 375 were unpleasant .

Whose shoulder was the rifle butt against? I do believe the recoil of any .30-30 would squash my 3-year-old boy like a bug.

 

[fiver]

all of it is relatable.
pitch, toe, cheek placement, cast off [or on, In Ian's case] top of stock angle.
they all work for or against you.

the only issue can be with the bolt hitting the cheek piece for removal in some instances.
two of my rifles actually have slots cut in the cheek piece of the butt stock to accommodate the bolt.


my cheek to eye measurement is 1-1/2"s, and a pointed shape is not gonna work for me.
i don't need to shave the side of the stock.
i can use a monte carlo stock or rolled comb,, parallel is fine if it's wide.
some [3-5*'s] of negative pitch is good for me.
2-2.5"s of heel drop works.
14-3/8's of LOP is good, 14 works too, anywhere in-between is fine, if the grip to trigger length is 4"s or 1/4" under.
a neutral stock needs to be on the 14" side, a bit of cast can go to almost 14-1/2
most of my hunting rifles are 13-3/4 to 14"s except one, and it's getting the stock chopped here soon.

if i whip a tape out and find those numbers or superclosenuff i can shoot the gun [or modify it slightly] comfortably all day long.

 

[Ian]

I think I told the story of Mike McAlpine pulling pigeon boxes out of the dumpster, ripping strips and duct-taping them to the stock of my Wingmaster to get me to quit shooting a foot under the bird. He said he left his belt sander at home and I was stuck shooting two feet to the right unless I wanted him to stick it in the crotch of that apple tree over there and put some cast in it. Right before that he wrapped electrical tape around the muzzle to obcsure the bead and I was like goddammit Mike how'm I supposed to aim it NOW? I learned a lot that day.

 

[fiver]

heck,, that's only 6 layers..LOL

my 101 has a black diamond trap stock on it, it had 3/4's of an inch worth of foam taped to it when i took it to the smith for the stock chop.
now it has 4 layers of yard stick taped to the step on the rib because of the severe angle, needed for me to see a straight line to the bird.
i could have just left the tape/foam in place and been fine, but every now and then i look down.

 

[Walks]

Fit has a lot to do with both recoil and point of impact in a shotgun. My Winchester M101 Trap Gun had it's stock "bent" at the old Pachmayr Gun shop in the mid 1970's. My average went immediately from 88 to 93 the first time I shot it.
When I had a Win M1897 modified for Cowboy Shooting, the POI changed so much that I was shooting 18" high at 15yrds. A raised bead fixed that.

So fit and stock style are as much a matter of necessity as are looks.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

My h like the cast bullet... Fit is EVERYTHING with a shotgun. Largely cause they are pointed not aimed.

With a rifle its a bit less BECAUSE its aimed. BUT recoil transmitted into the shooter is largely stock design. Largely weight & partially caliber. A good recoil pad can make or break a deal as well. Drop in a stock, much like is found in a 94 or that Browning I mentioned transmits recoil more pronounced. Also has much to do with muzzle rise.
A good bolt rifle stock, one designed for a lrg caliber will be quite straight. Its butt more in line with its bore with a good wide recoil pad.

CW

 

[Bret4207]

I keep hearing this and I'm still not believing it. My 1954 cut rifled 336 had the worst machining inside and out and worst wood fitment and wood to metal fit of any levergun, any brand, I've ever seen. Makes Rossi look like Turnbull. Meanwhile, my 1966 336 Texan is pretty good. Wood is sappy on one edge and the sanding and varnish are not great but the metal polish and fit of everything is great. I haven't had to tweak anything on it and you know how I am about re-engineering and re-bedding everything so that's saying a lot for Marlin. My 1993 JM is also good on both fit and finish, only problem is the nickel boron bolt plating started flaking off so badly it was jamming the works. I polished it out and polished the bolt raceway and haven't had any more trouble with it.

If your old Marlin don't look right, fix it! Less than $80 for the wood, little sanding here and there to perfect the fit, bed the tangs, good to go.

View attachment 31379

Maybe you got a Monday morning gun? Yes, Marlins did tend to carry more wood than Wins after the war. I have a M94 and M1897 both likely made prior to 1930 and both are slim and trim. Internal finish? You may have a point there as I've never made a study of it. Lotta less than perfect metal working on any gun from the days of totally manual machine tools though. But there are trade offs no matter which direction you go. Winchcester will normally have a higher resale value, Marlins action is stiffer, arguably stronger, easier to scope. Winchester could produce a better a better blue than Marlin, at least IMO and prior to '64. But Marlin never had weird metals that came out purple if you tried to blue them. Marlins Micro-groove used to be considered inferior for cast as we all know. Well, Winchester turned out a lot of barrels that were pretty rough and were inferior for cast and jacketed! Of course 2 piece stocks, barrel bands and magazines hanging off the barrel aren't a recipe for a benchrest gun anyway, but I've yet to see some of the bragging groups from a run of the mill W94 that we've seen from a few guys with M336's.

Trade offs, luck of the draw, willingness to buck common opinion, etc. I like them both. Neither is superior IMO. But then I think the Savage 99 is superior to both, which many will disagree entirely with!