Super Hard Bullet Recipe

[RBHarter]

Come on guys . Ease up some times "the horse" stands around the trough for an hour barely wetting it's whiskers and just about the time you're absolutely sure it's time to move on they suck up the whole trough like a camel or something .

I'm a testament to jumping both feet in the wrong end of the pool and breaking toes on the steps .

 

[Brad]

I used to think harder was better. Now I am more of a softer is better guy.
No heat treat, no water drop, just good old fashion fit, design, and the right load.

In the end of it works for you then that is what matters.

 

[462]

Throw your edition of Modern Reloading in the trash

Both editions, at that.

 

[Mitty38]

@stlg67
GLAD YOU ARE STILL HERE WITH AN OPEN MIND.
The hardest I have ever ran .357 was in a rifle and that was 12 Bhn gas checked, un quenched 158 grain at 1800 fps.
If I were you I would save that lino type for sweetening the mix, when the need rears its head..

I am currently running some test loads My AR 15 with a powder coated 61 grain bullet at over 2100 fps.
Mind you .224. An itty, bitty bullet that deforms easily. Powder coated, no gas check and pushed to 2100 fps with H335 a powder designed for jacketed bullets in an gas operated action, with no leading.
Have a thread about this, but have not posted the latest as I am still accuracy and pressure testing.
But imagine .224 at 2100fps+ I am doing this with 15 bhn( basically a home made Lyman #2ish formula, made with wheel weights mostly,with a little pewter, and lino type)...un-quenched.
Let that sink in... then tell me why you would ever use lino type for anything other then tweeking the mix a bit.

 

[462]

But, Emmett, a gun writer with self-proclaimed 50-plus years experience casting bullets uses straight Linotype for all his autoloaders.

 

[Mitty38]

@stlg67
Here buddy get yourself this....https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010248522
Its still Kinda from the harder is better crowd. But.... is a lot closer to what we are doing here, than most of it. Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook has a lot of good info and recipes. Still a good base line to start from. Read it twice then forget half of what they are saying.
Warning they really like, and are sold on Lyman #2.
A lot of these guys fed their families on that formula, and thru the company that created it.
So expect a little prejudice concerning it. Plus some over zealousness in using it, when straight wheel weights+ .5% tin,or just quenched, along with attention to detail, will get you farther.

 

[Mitty38]

Also I was wondering if someone would know the best way to mix the plumbers lead of 8 BHN to achieve a BHN of around 15 or so for the higher velocity on the .357? I was going to stay with this caliber until I can get better with the casting technique, because I am seeing the difference in the bullet weights with the casting and I need to work on getting them a lot more consistent, if anyone has some ideas they will be welcomed

Alloy effects Bullet weight. A lot of other factors. Check for square nice bases first, round edge ones are light pours and can cause other accuracy issues besides. Chunk those, or put them aside for close up plinking fodder where accuracy does not count.
A lot of times I find myself weighing the bullets into + or -.3 lots. Then save the 2 closest to the expected weight groups. The rest go back into another melt.

Trust me for hotter .357 loads, go for 12 first, and a good fit. Rather then 15 BHN.
Still use the softer stuff for your light loads. 8bhn is great for light loads.
15 can cause leading, flame cutting etc., in your .357

12 BHN is just where lack of arbitration starts to be a factor. Not getting good expansion, to get a good seal, This is needed if your sizing is not just so to match the gun. 12 is still way more forgiving concerning fit then 15bhn (lyman#2).
12 likes the hotter top of the spectrum loads for .357, but will bite you in the butt in what we call the "mouse fart" loads.
How do you get 12? Easy way... check a wheel weight bullet un quenched if it reads 11 or12 use that. If it needs adjusted then.... Straight from Roto Metals Web sight......
Basic Rules for Hardening Lead-(go by weight, not volume)
For every 1% additional tin, Brinell hardness increases 0.3.
(you can use pewter, tin pellets; or you can use 50-50 solder x 2.2 for tin)
For every 1% additional antimony, Brinell hardness increases 0.9.
For a simple equation,
Brinell = 8.60 (Antimonial Lead) + ( 0.29 * Tin ) + ( 0.92 * Antimony )

 

[fiver]

which means you pretty much have to double the tin and antimony to get from 11-12 to 15-16 BHN, and then double it again to go from 15-16 to 20-22.
which then tears up your rifles throat, and the bullets become brittle enough to break in a sizing die.

there is tough, malleable, and hard.
there's lot's of way's to get there and keep the desirable qualities without going to 35 BHN.

 

[Mitty38]

which means you pretty much have to double the tin and antimony to get from 11-12 to 15-16 BHN, and then double it again to go from 15-16 to 20-22.
which then tears up your rifles throat, and the bullets become brittle enough to break in a sizing die.

there is tough, malleable, and hard.
there's lot's of way's to get there and keep the desirable qualities without going to 35 BHN.

Thank you for that.
You brought out something I kind of know, but never thought on long enough for it to set in. Even saw that when making my #2 type alloy. But it just never clicked all the way.
Increase in antimony to increase hardness requires a pretty stiff increase in antimony for the results achieved.
Simple thing, but worth taking time to ponder on.

See, I am still learning from my Sensei.

 

[fiver]

well when you ponder that out,,,, consider how antimony crystals break down under pressure and let lead shear and flow even easier than pure lead alone will.
that'll put the 2/6 hardball alloy at 15 BHN into perspective against 5/5 lyman number-2 alloy at 15BHN

 

[CZ93X62]

I use a LOT of 92/6/2 in magnum revolver and rifle loads. It is in the 14-15 BHn range, and isn't hard to gin up--it's just Linotype metal half/half with unalloyed lead. As Huck Finn would say, "It covers a power of sins". It must fit well, though--and has held up for me to 2000 FPS in 30-06 and 2400 FPS in 22 Hornet. Sloppy bullet fit is the proximate cause of leading--PERIOD. Hardness really doesn't matter a damn. I send Lyman #358429s cast of pure lead at 900 FPS from my 357 Magnum revolvers all the time.

Hardness of bullet alloy keeps them from getting too banged up during shipping. That useless candle-wax lube is used for the same reason. Harder IS NOT "better"--except as a sales gimmick.

 

[Mitty38]

Just tryin' to keep the fellow under 12 bhn with the .357. In a less antimony type alloy. To learn with. Baby steps.
Don't want him struggling with too much right out of the box.

But he wants to know how to go harder, sometimes you just got to enable, and let a fellow make mistakes.

Of course I could be onery, and just send him 20 lbs of High antimony 16 bhn alloy for his .357 bullets.
Oh, and a box of Copper Chore boy, gun oil and a wooden dowel.
Then tell him; here make yourself some bullets. He would figure out what the Chore Boy, gun oil, and stick was for; eventually.
Probably sooner then later. I did. LOL

 

[stlg67]

The biggest secret to consistent bullet weight is a consistent "mold" temperature. Practice and experience will make that pretty easy.

Confused by your desire for such hard bullets. Not needed and can be detrimental to both accuracy and leading of the barrel. My very top end 357 mag loads are most accurate at 18 BHN with zero leading. That's a 180 gr bullet at 1550 fps from a 9 inch barrel. That's top end and anything harder than 18 BHN opens up long range groups.

Are you using a LEE hardness tester?

Yes sir I'm using a Lee Hardness Tester

I'm a glutton for punishment, so let me put it straight out there and ask- Why do you think you need 25Bhn and just what gave you the idea that was a magic number? What information are you seeing that says you need that, that a relative number will make a difference? Also, are you aware your alloys are going to age harden over a period of weeks? What sources are you using to educate yourself on cast?

BTW- What did your first castings look like? What mould maker and model #'s are you using?

As for the BHN of 25, I had seen some information about high velocity rounds and that they needed to be above 20 BHN. Wither that is correct or not I'm not sure, that's why I joined this forum to try and learn from people that have the experience and are willing to share. The people that I seen where powder coating their bullets, so I'm not sure if that was part of the recipe to achieve that 25 BHN.
The bullets that I've done seemed to look pretty good, I fluxed the lead for the second time while in the Lee 20 LB pot that I'm using. When I first melted the lead, I used a cast iron pot and fluxed the lead then. There where a couple of the bullets that had some small pitting after casting about 5 or so, then the reset seemed to look okay. But like I said earlier I have some weight issues, so I'll try the advice that RB Harter suggested. I'm at work currently, but the .38/.357 mold that I'm using is an older RCBS steel mold that I picked up from a guy that passed away that my uncle knew, I'll have to reply with the mold number this evening. I made sure the mold was clean before I started casting, I used carb cleaner, the style that is cold to the touch, so there was no residue in the mold, there was no rust in the mold, the mold looked almost new. Thanks again for the information!!

 

[stlg67]

Alloy effects Bullet weight. A lot of other factors. Check for square nice bases first, round edge ones are light pours and can cause other accuracy issues besides. Chunk those, or put them aside for close up plinking fodder where accuracy does not count.
A lot of times I find myself weighing the bullets into + or -.3 lots. Then save the 2 closest to the expected weight groups. The rest go back into another melt.

Trust me for hotter .357 loads, go for 12 first, and a good fit. Rather then 15 BHN.
Still use the softer stuff for your light loads. 8bhn is great for light loads.
15 can cause leading, flame cutting etc., in your .357

12 BHN is just where lack of arbitration starts to be a factor. Not getting good expansion, to get a good seal, This is needed if your sizing is not just so to match the gun. 12 is still way more forgiving concerning fit then 15bhn (lyman#2).
12 likes the hotter top of the spectrum loads for .357, but will bite you in the butt in what we call the "mouse fart" loads.
How do you get 12? Easy way... check a wheel weight bullet un quenched if it reads 11 or12 use that. If it needs adjusted then.... Straight from Roto Metals Web sight......
Basic Rules for Hardening Lead-(go by weight, not volume)
For every 1% additional tin, Brinell hardness increases 0.3.
(you can use pewter, tin pellets; or you can use 50-50 solder x 2.2 for tin)
For every 1% additional antimony, Brinell hardness increases 0.9.
For a simple equation,
Brinell = 8.60 (Antimonial Lead) + ( 0.29 * Tin ) + ( 0.92 * Antimony )

Thanks for that clarification

 

[Bret4207]

"As for the BHN of 25, I had seen some information about high velocity rounds and that they needed to be above 20 BHN." From what source? I can tell you first hand and you can read back through all the comments yesterday on this thread that it's BS. As I told you some time back, Bhn is just a number and it's a tiny part of the recipe to get things working nicely. I'll say it again, it seems like "harder" should be better, but it's just not that simple at all! Please, stop fretting over Bhn and learn to use cast at moderate speeds, like 1000 out of 357 handgun or 1500 out of a 30-06. Then start working up.

 

[Rick]

I have done a tremendous amount of hardness testing. Perhaps you can get something out of this article.

Heat Treating Lead/Antimony/Arsenic Alloys

 

[stlg67]

@stlg67
Here buddy get yourself this....https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010248522
Its still Kinda from the harder is better crowd. But.... is a lot closer to what we are doing here, than most of it. Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook has a lot of good info and recipes. Still a good base line to start from. Read it twice then forget half of what they are saying.
Warning they really like, and are sold on Lyman #2.
A lot of these guys fed their families on that formula, and thru the company that created it.
So expect a little prejudice concerning it. Plus some over zealousness in using it, when straight wheel weights+ .5% tin,or just quenched, along with attention to detail, will get you farther.

Yes sir, I have that book

 

[Ian]

Pay attention to this, think hard about what Fiver wrote here. I'll add that #2 alloy is very tough and shear-stable because it is on really a binary alloy containing lead and a very tough alloying substance created from equal parts tin and antimony called Sb/Sn which is formed by an intermetallic bond within the lead solution. Sb/Sn is tougher and more malleable than either tin or antimony, much like how carbon in steel makes iron tougher than either. Antimony makes brittle shear planes that temporarily strengthens lead until the failure point and then it turns to hot putty. Tin in small quantities mitigates this and further ties the alloy together. Sometimes you want the alloy to be rigid and crush/flow at a certain point, sometimes you want the bullet to remain tough through the whole range of pressure and a more linear pressure/deformation line. Some antimony and an amount of tin from zero UP TO the amount of antimony is the key to achieving the qualities that a particular load needs. (There is more to it but that's the basics).

well when you ponder that out,,,, consider how antimony crystals break down under pressure and let lead shear and flow even easier than pure lead alone will.
that'll put the 2/6 hardball alloy at 15 BHN into perspective against 5/5 lyman number-2 alloy at 15BHN

Let me put this another way: cast iron can have a Rockwell C hardness of 12 to 65, usually about 29. 4140 through-hardening steel, of which most guns are made, can also be 12-65+ and is often hardened to about 30-45 for guns. Same hardness qualities and range.

Would you make a .30-'06 receiver out of cast iron?

 

[Joshua]

Tough vs brittle! Both can be hard.

 

[Rick]

You can have several different lead alloys made up of many different metals and every one of them could measure the same BHN getting there by different means and everyone of them will perform differently.