Common Alloys And Their Uses

[Bret4207]

I am back. Thanks for your input. Since I last posted, I did the following. I took what ingots I had and separated them into three lots from soft, medium, and hardest based on the pencil scratch test. Then, I used the softest alloy to cast hundreds of .45 and .38 bullets for consistency. I have some left to cast 9-122 TC bullets. I plan to cast 9-122 bullets using some medium and hard alloy tested lots and compare test loads between them later. For now, I'll use the medium and hardest lead ingots to cast 9mm and .40cal bullets with the higher chamber pressures. More importantly, I'll have a consistent alloy for the brass/primer/powder combination for the best accuracy.

While I haven't done such a test, I am guessing that different alloy bullets shoot like different factory bullets like Speer and Winchester and Hornady of the same weight and same powder charge, case, primer. No. Not normally. There are 8 or 10 other variables at least invovled. Sometimes it's as simple as you lay out, but usually it's much more nuanced.

I don't have much range time and have to ponder over your experienced advice. Using my knowledge to understand what all of you are saying, an undersized bullet at the worse is like a bullet being shot through a tube. As the diameter grows, it catches on the rifling and the rifling acts like a cheese grater. No. The issue is erosion from powder gases.The burning powder and hot gases soften the lead NO, NO, NO and NO! makes things worse. Eventually, bullet size is large enough so it obturates and deforms into the rifling. Depends on a multiple number of things. Obturation is a function of pressure, not so much of size. This holds the bullet in place so the bullet follows the channel (rifling) down the barrel. As pressure picks up, the bullet continues to deform to a point where there could possibly be leading (rifles?). Unlikely, leading usually comes from poor fit for a given load combined with erosion. This can be limited when gas checks are used because the copper base distributes the force like comparing kicking a cardboard box vs kicking a plywood plate that's been attached to the cardboard box. No, not even close. It's a seal against pressure with some ability to act, possibly, as a scraper. Even if the lead doesn't rub off in the barrel at this point, it deforms too much and accuracy suffers. If the lead alloy is harder, I need more powder to deform the bullet to fit the rifling. No, you need to fit the bullet as close as you can BEFORE seating and then work with your alloy and BULLET DESIGN to see where the dynamic fit heads. Spending time and exrcising great care to produce as close to a perfect bullet as possible and then smashing it into putty in the hope it will fit the barrel is not the surest route to success.

Then there is PC. To me, PC is not a lube. It's more like a plated bullet except the plating is a shell of paint that encompasses the lead. During the painting process, the paint is melted into the lead molecule surface during the baking process. That's why when you hammer it, the paint doesn't come off. It's like leading a car to cover dents in Autobody, the lead molecules is soldered to the steel. My big problem here is that a thin coating of paint DOES rub off after I seat a bullet and remove it. Does that mean that there is exposed lead in my barrel? Well, the bullet is sized to my barrel so maybe the exposed lead bullet isn't noticed because of the fit.

So, my question here is am I on the right track? Brett, I want to experiment with your soft lead advice using the alloys I mentioned above and ( just remembering), some .22lr lead too to compare. I never said use "soft lead". I said take what you have, mix as much as possible together and start with what you end up with. You're basing your guess on Bhn off a very subjective "pencil test" on alloys of unknown makeup and you aren't giving it time, from what I can tell at least, to stabilize. Lead alloys harden and soften, to a greater or lesser degree over time. As short a time as a couple days can result in quite different readings.

Thanks all

No offense at all intended, but you are totally hung up on Bhn. I'm telling you that despite the gut feeling that Bhn is an answer, that "harder has to be better", it just isn't so for most applications in normal cast shooting. If you want to chase that rabbit, have at it. But you will get way more good results from forgetting that one group is 12 Bhn and the other is "harder" at 15Bhn (or 22 or 30) than you will in fitting the bullet to the throat and working with dynamic size controls. If you only have a little time, then start by using as large a casting as will chamber reliably in your gun and start doing ladder type tests to see where changing powder charges take you. It doesn't matter what you do, you HAVE to work with the effects of whatever pressures you develop on the particular design you are using in that particular gun. There are guys here who can give you masters level explanations of all this and who can walk you through it better than I can. I'm a little blunt maybe, but I'm telling you to STOP obsessing over "hardness" and just start with ONE alloy and see where it takes you.

 

[burbank.jung]

Thanks Brett. I have to try the experiment. I once owned two dogs. They loved chasing rabbits. Even when they saw a rabbit take off a 1/4 mile away they'd take off after it. Not one rabbit was ever caught. But when the dogs returned home, they slept in the shade dreaming of chasing rabbits, with a smile on their faces with twitching paws.

 

[burbank.jung]

Me too.
I have always wondered about that, as I have had some "rub off" and some not, under different circumstances.
Yet in either instance, have found no leading, and very little plastic in my bores? Nothing a single pass with a nylon brush will not fix anyway.
Except one time, when I was hitting an extremely High BH(21) powder coated bullet, with a large amount of force. While playing with very fast powder.. lets just the primers were looking pretty iffy. And the retrived bullet was almost bare.

Have you tried anything to reduce the paint from rubbing off? I was thinking of double coating the bullets. Lubing them with RCBS resizing lube before seating could prevent the paint from being removed during the seating process but not while the bullet is travelling down the barrel.

 

[Brad]

With PC I followed the advice of some others and went to a slightly smaller sizing die. I use a .309instead of .310 or .311 so I don’t scrape the coating off in the throat.
I find it helped in my 1911 as well.

The key is trying things to see what does or doesn’t work.

 

[waco]

The proof is in the pudding as they say.

 

[burbank.jung]

With PC I followed the advice of some others and went to a slightly smaller sizing die. I use a .309instead of .310 or .311 so I don’t scrape the coating off in the throat.
I find it helped in my 1911 as well.

The key is trying things to see what does or doesn’t work.

Sounds good.

 

[Mitty38]

Have you tried anything to reduce the paint from rubbing off? I was thinking of double coating the bullets. Lubing them with RCBS resizing lube before seating could prevent the paint from being removed during the seating process but not while the bullet is travelling down the barrel.

Actually the rubbing off experience for me is just while traveling down the barrel.
Usually on my thinnest Coats.

I have pulled down a few loads and have never had the powder "rub off" during the loading process. BTW I dry size my PC in most cases, I have sizers in increments where I can take little steps down.
Of course I have flaringt tools and case expanders. I either expand or flare the brass at the mouth before loading the bullet. Depending on what I am working with. Just enough to keep from scraping or sizing down the bullet. If my die set does not expand enough it on its own. I think that makes all the difference.
Size then coat then size.

Never have had issues with any thing more then a thickness that increases the bullet size by .002 and no appreciable de laminating with anything over .001 increase in size.

I think they all leave some residue, just not in a form that is detrimental, and not enough to foul the barrel in a detrimental way.

Just kind of curious that when it does happen, like in the rare instance in my .357 with 125 grain RF, loaded in 38 special brass at + p. It only seams to foul so far and have no influence on accuracy, nore does it get worse. When I get home a nylon brush and some hoops with 2 or 3 passes take care if it.
I leave the small amount of " lead seasoning" in the barrel, that I put their with lightly Alox lubed bullets. It never gets cleaned out completely, except for hunting deer or hog, when I switch to fmj,. After which I clean the copper from and run a few lead down to season it, again.
The gun is just a lot more accurate with a thin coat of lead in the barrel.

Ok I am rambling, living up to my tag line. So I will shut up now.

 

[Bret4207]

Thanks Brett. I have to try the experiment. I once owned two dogs. They loved chasing rabbits. Even when they saw a rabbit take off a 1/4 mile away they'd take off after it. Not one rabbit was ever caught. But when the dogs returned home, they slept in the shade dreaming of chasing rabbits, with a smile on their faces with twitching paws.

Yeah, well, make sure you expand that quoted post of yours above before you go chasing rabbits. But remember chasing the rabbit doesn't mean catching the rabbit. If the goal is the chase, then why ask questions? Expand that quote. I covered most of the stuff you misunderstood and answered in bold text. I will again urge to read that Glenn Fryxell on line book that covers most of this. I'm done.

 

[Ian]

Where the coating gets rubbed off is the point where the gun squeezes the bullet, i.e. the cylinder throat, forcing cone, or barrel throat. This is why Brad mentioned making coated bullets smaller than you normally would for lubricated cast bullets. I find that on average I split the difference between nominal jacketed diameter and what the gun likes with lubricated cast bullets. You still need an interference fit to prevent gas cutting, but just barely enough interference or the coating can get scraped off.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

Sharp edges scrap off the coating is a but of a misnomer. Because properly applied and cured NO THEY DO NOT because they are stronger then the lead that they are applied to. Meaning you are scraping off lead and the coating comes with.
Same same? Same result? Well yea because it leaves lead exposed. But do ya think the lube 100% coated and insulated the case before there was PC? Nope it surely didnt and did it matter? Well it probably did but no one really investigated or worried cause it dod what they wanted. They took the idea and ran with it.
I have sized many a "FAT BULLET" and every-time what I push out the other side is a SLICK AND SHINY COLORED BULLET! It further imbeds the coating it dosen't "scrape" it off!

Just the other day, in a chat, I herd a man tell another that PC was fine for short range but any good if ya really want accuracy or needed to shoot accurately at long ranges, what ya use is old school bullet lube not PC. Really...
WHY? What I was told was opinion and history no facts. Why? Because largely its NOT BEEN AS ACCEPTED.
My answer is we ALL BECOME SET IN OUT WAYS. Its human nature, we learn what works and cast aside what dosent. Weather its true or its just how we want like or do things. Rare is the "older person" who eagerly accepts change. SO along comes Powder Coating to a person or a group of people who have for decades proved there sport with lubrications. Of coarse they are jot going to accept it and change decades of who that have been!! Its NOT because it dosent work!!! Its not nearly been given the opportunities a lubed cast bullet has.
CW

 

[Ian]

Put your bullet through a sizer at 1000 feet per second and you may have a different experience.
Yes, lead is scraped off with the coating because adhesion is stronger than lead's cohesion. This happens with lubricated bullets too but the lube remains to do its thing.

I wouldn't say "no one really investigated" the mechanisms of traditional bullet lubricant. Mann, Pope, Harrison, Hatcher, Smith, Robbins, Gray, myself, and countless others in the competitive realm. What most found is that lube is but one variable among a collection of factors which make up the thing called "Dynamic Fit". Alloy, pressure curve, and bullet shape determine how it all works. Some lube is blown around the bullet before it engraves unless it is fully breech-seated beforehand, determined by capturing and observing many, many lube ejecta patterns. This light mist of lube I believe helps ease the throat transition.

Powder paint is a jacket, no more, no less.

 

[fiver]

and if you follow that train some, the lubes BHN matters.
well not really BHN, but viscosity, which is pretty much the same thing if you think about it.

 

[Ian]

True that. And how quickly and by what mechanism (heat or pressure) the lube loses its viscosity. There's that dynamic thing again......how is your lube doing when the pressure drops off below a certain point at a certain point in the barrel while the particular choice of alloy (not hardness but spring vs squish) is accelerating in two directions?

 

[L Ross]

Sharp edges scrap off the coating is a but of a misnomer. Because properly applied and cured NO THEY DO NOT because they are stronger then the lead that they are applied to. Meaning you are scraping off lead and the coating comes with.
Same same? Same result? Well yea because it leaves lead exposed. But do ya think the lube 100% coated and insulated the case before there was PC? Nope it surely didnt and did it matter? Well it probably did but no one really investigated or worried cause it dod what they wanted. They took the idea and ran with it.
I have sized many a "FAT BULLET" and every-time what I push out the other side is a SLICK AND SHINY COLORED BULLET! It further imbeds the coating it dosen't "scrape" it off!

Just the other day, in a chat, I herd a man tell another that PC was fine for short range but any good if ya really want accuracy or needed to shoot accurately at long ranges, what ya use is old school bullet lube not PC. Really...
WHY? What I was told was opinion and history no facts. Why? Because largely its NOT BEEN AS ACCEPTED.
My answer is we ALL BECOME SET IN OUT WAYS. Its human nature, we learn what works and cast aside what dosent. Weather its true or its just how we want like or do things. Rare is the "older person" who eagerly accepts change. SO along comes Powder Coating to a person or a group of people who have for decades proved there sport with lubrications. Of coarse they are jot going to accept it and change decades of who that have been!! Its NOT because it dosent work!!! Its not nearly been given the opportunities a lubed cast bullet has.
CW

I have not really delved into the reasons why I loathe change, but I do. Primarily because so much change is promulgated to either exert control or cut cost. Fuel cans, strike anywhere matches, and paint are just the first examples off the top of my head of change I could do without.

Now real advances in technologies or actual improvements in products are welcome and laudable. While I can no longer do much work on a modern vehicle I appreciate the fact that they will likely run 200K and more. I may explore PC some day, but at this point I can find no advantages over what I am currently doing with cast bullets FOR MY NEEDS. The procedure does not seem to save time or steps. The exciting thing about this emerging technology is the ability to shoot at higher velocities, perhaps with a softer bullet for hunting applications. That said, if I find my hunting requirements exceed the abilities of my traditional cast bullets, I'll use jacketed. I'll never use up the odds and ends of jacketed bullets I have amassed over the decades.

I enjoy reading about the techniques and nuances of powder coated bullets, but I cannot use the extra velocity that PC promises as dozens of my targets are mild steel and are damaged by cast loads that start out faster than about 1,800 fps. I find the idea of powder coated bullets offering full velocity ammo in semi auto rifles an intriguing concept, but....I planned ahead years ago so that need is already covered. That said a sustainable source of home made bullets may be a Godsend for many.

 

[Mitty38]

A lot to think about.

 

[462]

Fuel cans

I have a 1 1/2-gallon and three five-gallon gas cans, all of which are regular ol' plastic gas cans. Last week, I found a partially-full 2 1/2-gallon enviro-whacko, Rube Goldberg designed gas can. What an abomination.

 

[Rick]

I have a 1 1/2-gallon and three five-gallon gas cans, all of which are regular ol' plastic gas cans. Last week, I found a partially-full 2 1/2-gallon enviro-whacko, Rube Goldberg designed gas can. What an abomination.

Your gubment designed that gas can just for you. Don't you feel safe now?

 

[Ian]

I feel pretty safe after cutting off the spout, sticking a 1" piece of fuel hose on there with a clamp and stopper, punching a vent hole with a large, tapered punch and installing a brass petcock for a vent valve. When traveling a few years ago I saw a forgotten 2.5 gallon, sturdy plastic can with flex nozzle and screw cap vent on a shelf at a backwoods gas station. They wanted $19.95 for it which I gladly paid and hauled it back to Texas with me.

I've said many times that the advantages of powder-coating process are many, but not everyone needs or wants to exploit them. Do you need cast bullets for high velocity hunting? Indoor range? Durability of ammunition at high storage temperature? Gas-operated rifles? Sealed suppressors? If not, it doesn't do much for you that a well-developed load with lubricated cast bullets won't.

 

[462]

Safe, Rick? As you well know, the state's air and water aren't safe to breathe and drink, so why should I worry about breathing gasoline fumes?

I've no intentions of keeping the contraption. It's contains mixed fuel, so I'll pour the contents into my regular ol' plastic and un-safe can and use it for the leaf blower, then give it to someone or toss it.

 

[L Ross]

I feel pretty safe after cutting off the spout, sticking a 1" piece of fuel hose on there with a clamp and stopper, punching a vent hole with a large, tapered punch and installing a brass petcock for a vent valve. When traveling a few years ago I saw a forgotten 2.5 gallon, sturdy plastic can with flex nozzle and screw cap vent on a shelf at a backwoods gas station. They wanted $19.95 for it which I gladly paid and hauled it back to Texas with me.

I've said many times that the advantages of powder-coating process are many, but not everyone needs or wants to exploit them. Do you need cast bullets for high velocity hunting? Indoor range? Durability of ammunition at high storage temperature? Gas-operated rifles? Sealed suppressors? If not, it doesn't do much for you that a well-developed load with lubricated cast bullets won't.

That paragraph on powder coating is a succinct summation, and points out why as a bullet casters and as ammunition loaders, we should learn to powder coat, and to develop accurate functional ammo with them. Circumstances change, unforeseen needs arise and it is always a darned poor strategy to learn a new skill under the gun, (pun intended).

I think I'll start looking for a darned B&D convection oven.