I need a bigger hammer

fiver

Well-Known Member
I been giving this some thought.
the problem is recoil and trajectory, there are plenty of flat shooting rounds but the issue is recoil and follow up shots.
I think what we need here is a B.A.R and some training.
Now old clyde barrow was from texas and was pretty proficient with a modified BAR.
a little platform change, some modifications to both the shooters stance and the rifle... and bam..

of course there was the hamer side of the story too.
from my understanding he only took 2 shots in that final affair.
one head shot and one head shot then he lowered his Remington model 8 and watched.
maybe Ian flinches.. LOL
 

Ian

Well-Known Member
2600 fps/200 grains at 60K psi or 2400 fps/200 grains at 35K psi. Both in a 6.5-pound, 18" AR-15. Which is gonna kick more?

A BAR falls into the "crew-served" category, and they do have a surprising amount of recoil for being 20 lbs, I've fired a semi-auto version. A BAR in .375 or .400 Hawk would be nice....

I may have it figured out, looking real hard at a 12" .458 Socom barrel for supersonics. Interesting thing about the .45 caliber and ranges past 100 yards...there is a trade-off between BC of short, light bullets and the velocity gained by going shorter and lighter. 200 grains at 2000 fps/muzzle falls faster and has less energy at 200 yards than a 340-grain at 1500fps/muzzle. The middle ground is 270-300, with a .200" meplat, or maybe a .250" meplat and a deep cup point. Anyway, 225-yard 6" point-blank with about 1,000 ft/lbs left to spare is doable with the .458 on an AR-15 platform and still have a short enough barrel to be handy with a suppressor. The trick is 300 grains with a BC near .250, and either a cup point or enough meplat to kill well. 1000 ft/lbs in .45 caliber striking at 1300 fps or faster should make two, big holes no matter what. The only question is can I handle the recoil, and I have no idea because nothing to compare it to. The .458 Socom with 1K fps/500-grain bullets kicks but isn't terrible, it's about like a 1-1/8 oz. skeet load in a 12-gauge double.
 

Hawk

Well-Known Member
You'll never feel it when shooting at game. Only at the bench and of course, after you have fired 12 shots in a row at running piggies.
Morning after hang over?
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
well it's weight and speed you have to factor in for the recoil, pressure plays no part in the matter since it pushes in all directions equally.

In my serious opinion the 35-37/200-250gr route is the ticket.
it gives you reasonable BC's and reasonable weights and reasonable velocity.
yeah it doesn't give you 300 yards, but it does cover everything under 200 easily.
 

Ian

Well-Known Member
Yeah, that's what it's looking like for sure. 200 yards is realistically good enough if the bullet will get there fast and not drop too much. If 300 yards is called for, I'll have plenty of time to figure the DOPE and take a rested shot. It's that cluster of pigs that I stumble up on while stalking around on a somewhat wooded ranch in the daylight at 100-200 yards that I'd like a chance at taking more than one.

The .357max/rimless/AR that someone mentioned earlier looks neat and is real close (180 grains at 2100+ from a 16" barrel), but not quite it.
 

Will

Well-Known Member
I’ve looked into the 357 max rimless AR and it looks to have never really worked out good.

Several guys have them but they are still fighting reliable feeding. I don’t think anyone is making barrels anymore either.
 

Ian

Well-Known Member
I have the tools to fit up a blank to an AR barrel extension. It seems that having a .35 on the very end of a case in a double-stack magazine is just a touch more angle than an AR likes. The BLK works so well because of the streamlined nose. Lots of leverguns have the same issue with bullets being too blunt at the front, like WFN designs. Too much diameter too far forward can make the case try to transition from feed angle to chambering angle too soon and the nose ends up too high to go in the pipe.
 

Brad

Administrator
Staff member
Get a good bolt gun and learn to run it. High power shooters used to say that bolt gunners didn’t like the AR because they didn’t like having to wait for the action to cycle.

I think a 358 Win would be about ideal. A 375 Win Marlin would be great too.

The 45s need bullet weight to retain downrange velocity. I chased that from here to there decades ago and realized that no matter what we do to the BC a 458 bullet drops like a rock from 100 and beyond unless we start it out fast enough that recoil is a killer.
 
Reactions: Ian

popper

Well-Known Member
Youth hunt I went on, kids got many deer and big (250#) hogs shot with 243 factory stuff, ~100 (feeder shots). Hill country deer & pigs take off for closest tree/shrub line. Pasture hogs - like to walk down the road and go through the pipe cattle gate - least resistance. When spooked, they will jump around a bit but once decide to run - straight line at constant speed. So you try to set up perpendicular to where they will run.
What does this have to do with caliber? 31-165 @2400 gives ~ 6" drop at 200 (sighted @100) compared to Rem hograzer stuff. BC calc will give time to target so lead isn't hard to figure. Drop is something else. A broadside pig doesn't have much 'real' target - head, front (heart/lung area) & rear legs (small but the motive power). Most of the animal is GUT. So you have a 4" dia. target for a broad side target. I usually get 2-3" dia target as they are moving directly away from me. Frontal shots are through skull/jaw/chest muscle. Not impenetrable but you don't really get a good clear shot due to deflection. Bigger bullet is OK but can you put it where it does good?
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
that 357 don't work well mostly because it has nothing to headspace on.
I made up some dummy rounds about 10-12 years back and couldn't figure out how to make the round HS without adding some kind of taper to the case or blowing it out to resemble the 375 whelen or 400 Ackley IMP whelen.
even treating it like the 30 carbine was kind of a no go too, the case just ain't thick enough and tolerances for an AR needed to be held pretty damn tight.

if someone built some good magazines for the 35 gremlin that would be a good option for the AR.
 

freebullet

Well-Known Member
The trotting hogs weakness is it's liver, the heart being second imo. If you can reduce either to liquid they drop very rapid, most creatures do. :cool:
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
Being the group we are .......
If your BO is an SS barrel ream it for the Herett or HRT and use 22 Nosler cases for the neck up . The 22 Nosler is a rebated base 6.8 case to a 223 rim , so you really need only to set HS on a simple ream and get a few 6.8 mags . Of course the same solution would apply to the 35 cal solution in a new barrel of using a Herett reamer and NOS brass . There may also be tools available for the Russian 9×39 which is exactly what it sounds like intended for a .356-.358 bullet of 200-250 gr with a 1075 fps MV . All of these would also have a shoulder and be fed from mags already set up for the fatter cartridges and with the NOS brass there's no bolt change needed .
 

Ian

Well-Known Member
29 grains of 2400 behind the Lee 457340rf predicts at 1695 fps and 34K psi from a 14" barrel and has the lowest muzzle pressure of any powder I could find to model that would make over 1600 fps and be under 35K Pmax. If that turns out to be achievable in real life and functions the system reliably I might be in real business here. A pinned brake makes it a legal rifle without the welded suppressor shroud and just barely within "not stupid long" with a can.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Why go with an illegally short 14 inch bbl? Why not use a 16"? Either going to need special
SBR paperwork, and a long delay, or weld on an extension. Why not have rifling the whole way?
Can't you screw on the suppressor right to the bbl, no adapter needed? Or do you need the brake
for recoil?

Bill
 
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Ian

Well-Known Member
I don't do anything illegal, Bill. I'm responsible for a small fleet of registered, transferable NFA toys and I don't screw around doing things that involve federal prison time. I keep a ready-to-go AR pistol lower at all times (typically set up with a .223 barrel and .22 lr conversion) so that I can have sub-16" barrels laying around waiting to be extended to rifle length and no grey area or "intent" bs.

The whole reason for engineering rifle barrels with shorter rifled sections is that a 16"+ barrel with a 10"+ suppressor screwed on the end is unwieldy as all hell in the field. There are two ways to make a shorter than normal suppressed rifle package without making the suppressor integral or having a short barrel and registered SBR lower. One is to permanently attach (ATF has specific requirements for "permanent") a muzzle device which extends the barrel to over 16" from breech face to the business end. A brake for mounting the suppressor typically has threads 1.5 to 2" behind the end, so it's a convenient way to shave 1.5-2" off the overall package length to use a 14 or 14.5" barrel (depending on brake length) when the suppressor is designed to screw down on the rebated threads and accommodate the brake inside the blast chamber. The other way is one that has been done commercially and by gunsmiths and individuals for a long time, and that is to extend a short barrel with a ventilated, permanently-attached shroud so that the suppressor can slide down inside the shroud and attach to the end of the rifled part via direct thread or a brake mount. One of my Blackouts and my .458 Socom both have 10.5" rifled portions with ventilated shrouds extending to 16.25" and with a 10.25" suppressor that makes a legal, effective 20.5"" suppressed RIFLE barrel package with NO SBR stamp, integrally-suppressed form 1 stamp, or requirement for a pistol receiver.

Here's my dedicated suppressed subsonic .458 Socom, note the overall package length with 2/3 of the suppressor fitting down inside the barrel extension. It's a legal rifle length barrel, 16.25" and the only registered part is the suppressor itself, which I can remove and use on other guns. This little sow was DRT with one high shoulder shot at 65 yards.

https://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?attachments/3297/
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
hey Ian, if you get a second run AA-4100 through that check it might beat the 2400 by a couple hundred PSI giving you a margin for hot/cold days.
 
Reactions: Ian

popper

Well-Known Member
Yea, liver is wrapped around on top of the the lungs, high broadside shot. Heart is down between the front legs. IMHO, Ian wants to build another upper (fine with me)! For the situation he first described he had the wrong ammo. Cast heavy supers or TSX or solids for supers. Most of the NV vids for 100 yds or more, 6.5 with solids. Last time I went to buddy's I took XD40, BO pistol for pig, 20ga for dove, 308 carbine for stand. Shot cast 308 at 200 so I could and would use it for 100 yd pigs. Also took a box of rem hograzer - solid that expand like that critter in 'tremers'. That was for running pigs at longer range. Ya, 1.5$ a round but hey. Deer 'bounce' when hit by auto, hogs don't - it's the low center of gravity. Same effect from a bullet. Not a problem to take a mag of reliable ammo as well as cast. There are some good solids made for 300BO.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you would do something illegal - just that without the SBR
papers or adding on the fixed extension, it would be illegal, so needed special treatment to
avoid a problem.
The suppressor goes INSIDE the bbl extansion? So, it must be a large diameter. Interesting.
I was thinking of an extension that would be some sort of an internal component of the suppressor.
Some have an initial expansion chamber before any baffles, and that seems like a place for a
'flash hider' or 'compensator' to fit and bleed gases into that first chamber. Or at least, in my
limited understanding, that was what I had in mind.

OK, I only have one suppressor, and never worried much about the length on the .300 BO where
it mostly lives. I have a .223 AR and a HK 7.62 NATO that it goes on, too.

Bill
 
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Ian

Well-Known Member
Here's a view without the can installed. There is a suppressor-mount brake with square external threads and angled shoulder20190108_180642.jpg way down in there simply to facilitate swapping the can around to different things and having one style of mount for all of them.

The reason for the holes is ventilation and weight savings, but also the ATF has gone on record suggesting that the tube barrel extensions not be solid because it would be too easy for baffles, spacers and an end cap to be added illegally.
 
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